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Re: [XP] TDD/unit testing in a team without unit testing

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  • George Dinwiddie
    Lukasz, ... I second Chris recommendation of WELC and suggest you pair it with the Mikado Method (http://mikadomethod.wordpress.com/book/) - George -- ... *
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 11, 2012
      Lukasz,

      On 1/11/12 9:28 AM, Chris Hulan wrote:
      > Don't know if it will help sell your team on unit tests,
      > but Michael Feathers' _Working Effectively with Legacy Code_ is the bible for
      > how to add tests to existing code with minimum disruption.

      I second Chris' recommendation of WELC and suggest you pair it with the
      Mikado Method (http://mikadomethod.wordpress.com/book/)

      - George

      --
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    • Charlie Poole
      Hi George, I hadn t come across that before myself but it looks interesting. Thanks! Charlie On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM, George Dinwiddie ... [Non-text
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 11, 2012
        Hi George,

        I hadn't come across that before myself but it looks interesting. Thanks!

        Charlie

        On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM, George Dinwiddie
        <lists@...>wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Lukasz,
        >
        > On 1/11/12 9:28 AM, Chris Hulan wrote:
        > > Don't know if it will help sell your team on unit tests,
        > > but Michael Feathers' _Working Effectively with Legacy Code_ is the
        > bible for
        > > how to add tests to existing code with minimum disruption.
        >
        > I second Chris' recommendation of WELC and suggest you pair it with the
        > Mikado Method (http://mikadomethod.wordpress.com/book/)
        >
        > - George
        >
        > --
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
        > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
        > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • james@renaissancesoftware.net
        Hello Luke I just wrote a blogpost about why manual test is unsustainable. It is not a article about TDD though it might give some insight into the need for
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 11, 2012
          Hello Luke

          I just wrote a blogpost about why manual test is unsustainable. It is not a article about TDD though it might give some insight into the need for automated tests. The other recomendations people made on the list are good ones.

          http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/206

          There are lot's of good reasons to do TDD. The most compelling one for new people in my opinion is defect prevention. Here's an article about that

          http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/16

          I've got some other articles onTDD that might help make a case to get some people to try TDD.

          thanks, James

          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          James Grenning Author of TDD for Embedded C
          www.renaissancesoftware.net http://pragprog.com/titles/jgade/
          www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog
          www.twitter.com/jwgrenning

          On Jan 11, 2012, at 4:45 AM, Lukasz Szyrmer wrote:

          > Hi all,
          >
          > Just wondering if anyone might have some experience with or know of some good resources on doing TDD within a team that doesn't feel strongly about automated testing. Ron Jeffries mentions such a concept in passing in his book Extreme Programming Adventures in C#.
          >
          > Generally speaking, I can see the benefits of unit testing. We do some interface level-behavioural testing, particularly where it's easy, but I'm not sure if we're really getting the benefit from our efforts.
          >
          > We already have a CI environment which builds on every check-in, and this is quite useful. On some of our programs, tests are somewhat hard to write, as most of our desktop programs are traditional desktop (Borland) C++ apps with windows UIs, so there isn't a separation of concerns like with MVVM in WPF for example.
          >
          > In particular, is there a good way of writing tests against one class without being too disruptive for the project? Are there any intermediate steps possible? For example, are there any easy ways to unit test a specific fragile class? Is this just an issue of figuring out how to apply dependency injection in this context? Does it make sense to pull the class out context?
          >
          > I realize it would be good to get everyone on board with TDD on one hand, and lower-level unit testing on the other, but it's hard to sell if I have little experience with it.
          >
          > Luke
          >
          > Linedata Limited
          > Registered Office: 85 Gracechurch St., London, EC3V 0AA
          > Registered in England and Wales No 3475006 VAT Reg No 710 3140 03
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lukasz Szyrmer
          George, Thanks for the Mikado method reference, as I wasn t aware of that one. Looks fantastic, because it seems to address the business payoff of using TDD
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 12, 2012
            George,

            Thanks for the Mikado method reference, as I wasn't aware of that one. Looks fantastic, because it seems to address the business payoff of using TDD while refactoring (i.e. not adding new features). I'm concerned about spending a lot of time (more importantly convincing others to spend lots of their time) on something that ends up proving largely what I already know, so hopefully that will clear things up a bit.

            Luke



            Linedata Limited
            Registered Office: 85 Gracechurch St., London, EC3V 0AA
            Registered in England and Wales No 3475006 VAT Reg No 710 3140 03



            From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George Dinwiddie
            Sent: 11 January 2012 19:12
            To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [XP] TDD/unit testing in a team without unit testing
            Importance: High



            Lukasz,

            On 1/11/12 9:28 AM, Chris Hulan wrote:
            > Don't know if it will help sell your team on unit tests,
            > but Michael Feathers' _Working Effectively with Legacy Code_ is the bible for
            > how to add tests to existing code with minimum disruption.

            I second Chris' recommendation of WELC and suggest you pair it with the
            Mikado Method (http://mikadomethod.wordpress.com/book/)

            - George

            --
            ----------------------------------------------------------
            * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
            Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
            Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
            ----------------------------------------------------------



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Steve Freeman
            It looks like you re in London. You should consider bringing a laptop to the eXtreme Tuesday Club and asking for help.
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 14, 2012
              It looks like you're in London. You should consider bringing a laptop to the eXtreme Tuesday Club and asking for help.

              http://xpday-london.editme.com/MeetingsSchedule2009

              S.

              On 11 Jan 2012, at 10:45, Lukasz Szyrmer wrote:
              > Just wondering if anyone might have some experience with or know of some good resources on doing TDD within a team that doesn't feel strongly about automated testing. Ron Jeffries mentions such a concept in passing in his book Extreme Programming Adventures in C#.
              >
              > Generally speaking, I can see the benefits of unit testing. We do some interface level-behavioural testing, particularly where it's easy, but I'm not sure if we're really getting the benefit from our efforts.
              >
              > We already have a CI environment which builds on every check-in, and this is quite useful. On some of our programs, tests are somewhat hard to write, as most of our desktop programs are traditional desktop (Borland) C++ apps with windows UIs, so there isn't a separation of concerns like with MVVM in WPF for example.
              >
              > In particular, is there a good way of writing tests against one class without being too disruptive for the project? Are there any intermediate steps possible? For example, are there any easy ways to unit test a specific fragile class? Is this just an issue of figuring out how to apply dependency injection in this context? Does it make sense to pull the class out context?
              >
              > I realize it would be good to get everyone on board with TDD on one hand, and lower-level unit testing on the other, but it's hard to sell if I have little experience with it.
              >
              > Luke
              >
              >
              > Linedata Limited
              > Registered Office: 85 Gracechurch St., London, EC3V 0AA
              > Registered in England and Wales No 3475006 VAT Reg No 710 3140 03
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >

              Steve Freeman
              http://www.mockobjects.com
              http://www.growing-object-oriented-software.com

              Winner of the Agile Alliance Gordon Pask award 2006




              Steve Freeman

              Winner of the Agile Alliance Gordon Pask award 2006
              Book: http://www.growing-object-oriented-software.com

              +44 797 179 4105
              Twitter: @sf105
              Higher Order Logic Limited
              Registered office. 2 Church Street, Burnham, Bucks, SL1 7HZ.
              Company registered in England & Wales. Number 7522677
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