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Re: [XP] TDD/unit testing in a team without unit testing

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  • Steven Solomon
    It is hard. right now i am working on a web team. we had CI but no unit tests or acceptance tests. my strategy is adding those as I change things but keep them
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 11, 2012
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      It is hard. right now i am working on a web team. we had CI but no unit
      tests or acceptance tests. my strategy is adding those as I change things
      but keep them out of the
      CI script (they don't run on the build, because Im not forcing TDD on my
      coworkers) so while adding tests I occasionally pull them over for a second
      and let them know what I am doing.
      Hopefully combining non breaking code and a non aggressive tdd evangelism
      will get results but we will see

      On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Chris Hulan <chris.hulan@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Don't know if it will help sell your team on unit tests,
      > but Michael Feathers' _Working Effectively with Legacy Code_ is the bible
      > for
      > how to add tests to existing code with minimum disruption.
      >
      > cheers
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • George Dinwiddie
      Lukasz, ... I second Chris recommendation of WELC and suggest you pair it with the Mikado Method (http://mikadomethod.wordpress.com/book/) - George -- ... *
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 11, 2012
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        Lukasz,

        On 1/11/12 9:28 AM, Chris Hulan wrote:
        > Don't know if it will help sell your team on unit tests,
        > but Michael Feathers' _Working Effectively with Legacy Code_ is the bible for
        > how to add tests to existing code with minimum disruption.

        I second Chris' recommendation of WELC and suggest you pair it with the
        Mikado Method (http://mikadomethod.wordpress.com/book/)

        - George

        --
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
        Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
        Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      • Charlie Poole
        Hi George, I hadn t come across that before myself but it looks interesting. Thanks! Charlie On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM, George Dinwiddie ... [Non-text
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 11, 2012
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          Hi George,

          I hadn't come across that before myself but it looks interesting. Thanks!

          Charlie

          On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM, George Dinwiddie
          <lists@...>wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Lukasz,
          >
          > On 1/11/12 9:28 AM, Chris Hulan wrote:
          > > Don't know if it will help sell your team on unit tests,
          > > but Michael Feathers' _Working Effectively with Legacy Code_ is the
          > bible for
          > > how to add tests to existing code with minimum disruption.
          >
          > I second Chris' recommendation of WELC and suggest you pair it with the
          > Mikado Method (http://mikadomethod.wordpress.com/book/)
          >
          > - George
          >
          > --
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
          > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
          > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • james@renaissancesoftware.net
          Hello Luke I just wrote a blogpost about why manual test is unsustainable. It is not a article about TDD though it might give some insight into the need for
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 11, 2012
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            Hello Luke

            I just wrote a blogpost about why manual test is unsustainable. It is not a article about TDD though it might give some insight into the need for automated tests. The other recomendations people made on the list are good ones.

            http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/206

            There are lot's of good reasons to do TDD. The most compelling one for new people in my opinion is defect prevention. Here's an article about that

            http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/16

            I've got some other articles onTDD that might help make a case to get some people to try TDD.

            thanks, James

            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            James Grenning Author of TDD for Embedded C
            www.renaissancesoftware.net http://pragprog.com/titles/jgade/
            www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog
            www.twitter.com/jwgrenning

            On Jan 11, 2012, at 4:45 AM, Lukasz Szyrmer wrote:

            > Hi all,
            >
            > Just wondering if anyone might have some experience with or know of some good resources on doing TDD within a team that doesn't feel strongly about automated testing. Ron Jeffries mentions such a concept in passing in his book Extreme Programming Adventures in C#.
            >
            > Generally speaking, I can see the benefits of unit testing. We do some interface level-behavioural testing, particularly where it's easy, but I'm not sure if we're really getting the benefit from our efforts.
            >
            > We already have a CI environment which builds on every check-in, and this is quite useful. On some of our programs, tests are somewhat hard to write, as most of our desktop programs are traditional desktop (Borland) C++ apps with windows UIs, so there isn't a separation of concerns like with MVVM in WPF for example.
            >
            > In particular, is there a good way of writing tests against one class without being too disruptive for the project? Are there any intermediate steps possible? For example, are there any easy ways to unit test a specific fragile class? Is this just an issue of figuring out how to apply dependency injection in this context? Does it make sense to pull the class out context?
            >
            > I realize it would be good to get everyone on board with TDD on one hand, and lower-level unit testing on the other, but it's hard to sell if I have little experience with it.
            >
            > Luke
            >
            > Linedata Limited
            > Registered Office: 85 Gracechurch St., London, EC3V 0AA
            > Registered in England and Wales No 3475006 VAT Reg No 710 3140 03
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lukasz Szyrmer
            George, Thanks for the Mikado method reference, as I wasn t aware of that one. Looks fantastic, because it seems to address the business payoff of using TDD
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 12, 2012
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              George,

              Thanks for the Mikado method reference, as I wasn't aware of that one. Looks fantastic, because it seems to address the business payoff of using TDD while refactoring (i.e. not adding new features). I'm concerned about spending a lot of time (more importantly convincing others to spend lots of their time) on something that ends up proving largely what I already know, so hopefully that will clear things up a bit.

              Luke



              Linedata Limited
              Registered Office: 85 Gracechurch St., London, EC3V 0AA
              Registered in England and Wales No 3475006 VAT Reg No 710 3140 03



              From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George Dinwiddie
              Sent: 11 January 2012 19:12
              To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [XP] TDD/unit testing in a team without unit testing
              Importance: High



              Lukasz,

              On 1/11/12 9:28 AM, Chris Hulan wrote:
              > Don't know if it will help sell your team on unit tests,
              > but Michael Feathers' _Working Effectively with Legacy Code_ is the bible for
              > how to add tests to existing code with minimum disruption.

              I second Chris' recommendation of WELC and suggest you pair it with the
              Mikado Method (http://mikadomethod.wordpress.com/book/)

              - George

              --
              ----------------------------------------------------------
              * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
              Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
              Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
              ----------------------------------------------------------



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Steve Freeman
              It looks like you re in London. You should consider bringing a laptop to the eXtreme Tuesday Club and asking for help.
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 14, 2012
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                It looks like you're in London. You should consider bringing a laptop to the eXtreme Tuesday Club and asking for help.

                http://xpday-london.editme.com/MeetingsSchedule2009

                S.

                On 11 Jan 2012, at 10:45, Lukasz Szyrmer wrote:
                > Just wondering if anyone might have some experience with or know of some good resources on doing TDD within a team that doesn't feel strongly about automated testing. Ron Jeffries mentions such a concept in passing in his book Extreme Programming Adventures in C#.
                >
                > Generally speaking, I can see the benefits of unit testing. We do some interface level-behavioural testing, particularly where it's easy, but I'm not sure if we're really getting the benefit from our efforts.
                >
                > We already have a CI environment which builds on every check-in, and this is quite useful. On some of our programs, tests are somewhat hard to write, as most of our desktop programs are traditional desktop (Borland) C++ apps with windows UIs, so there isn't a separation of concerns like with MVVM in WPF for example.
                >
                > In particular, is there a good way of writing tests against one class without being too disruptive for the project? Are there any intermediate steps possible? For example, are there any easy ways to unit test a specific fragile class? Is this just an issue of figuring out how to apply dependency injection in this context? Does it make sense to pull the class out context?
                >
                > I realize it would be good to get everyone on board with TDD on one hand, and lower-level unit testing on the other, but it's hard to sell if I have little experience with it.
                >
                > Luke
                >
                >
                > Linedata Limited
                > Registered Office: 85 Gracechurch St., London, EC3V 0AA
                > Registered in England and Wales No 3475006 VAT Reg No 710 3140 03
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >

                Steve Freeman
                http://www.mockobjects.com
                http://www.growing-object-oriented-software.com

                Winner of the Agile Alliance Gordon Pask award 2006




                Steve Freeman

                Winner of the Agile Alliance Gordon Pask award 2006
                Book: http://www.growing-object-oriented-software.com

                +44 797 179 4105
                Twitter: @sf105
                Higher Order Logic Limited
                Registered office. 2 Church Street, Burnham, Bucks, SL1 7HZ.
                Company registered in England & Wales. Number 7522677
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