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Re: [XP] Relevance of XP in Modern era

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  • RonJeffries
    Hello paul, ... That s not remotely correct. Scrum is roughly a very small subset of XP. There is strong evidence that convergent evolution was not involved.
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 19, 2011
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      Hello paul,

      On Aug 19, 2011, at 10:50 AM, paul wrote:

      > XP is essentially "scrum" for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.


      That's not remotely correct. Scrum is roughly a very small subset of XP. There is strong evidence that convergent evolution was not involved.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
      Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
      Yin and Yang I figure.
      -- Tom Jeffries



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dave Rooney
      ... From Jeff Sutherland s blog in 2006: InfoQ and the Roots of Scrum http://scrum.jeffsutherland.com/2006/09/infoq-and-roots-of-scrum.html Essentially, Kent
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 19, 2011
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        On 2011-08-19, at 10:50 AM, paul wrote:

        >
        >
        > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> XP will remain relevant until it is superceded by something more effective.
        >> That hasn't happened yet.
        >>
        >> There are those who believe that Scrum has superceded XP, but IMHO those are
        >> mostly folks who know more about managing IT organizations than about
        >> crafting software. If Scrum were to incorporate *any software development
        >> practices at all* then it might be competitive to XP, but unless they were
        >> really amazing practices it still wouldn't supercede XP.
        >> On Jun 23, 2011 4:29 AM, "Tay" <twzgerald@...> wrote:
        >
        > XP is essentially "scrum" for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.
        >

        From Jeff Sutherland's blog in 2006: InfoQ and the Roots of Scrum http://scrum.jeffsutherland.com/2006/09/infoq-and-roots-of-scrum.html

        Essentially, Kent focused more on the technical practices, which was a direct result of the environment in which XP was born. Sutherland & Schwaber chose to focus on the project management practices.

        Dave Rooney | Agile Coach and Co-founder
        Westboro Systems - Agile Coaching, Training, Organizational Transformation.
        Blog | Twitter | LinkedIn



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      • MarvinToll.com
        It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread mind-share ... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community. It reminds a bit
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 20, 2011
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          It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.

          It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure. If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.

          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello paul,
          >
          > On Aug 19, 2011, at 10:50 AM, paul wrote:
          >
          > > XP is essentially "scrum" for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.
          >
          >
          > That's not remotely correct. Scrum is roughly a very small subset of XP. There is strong evidence that convergent evolution was not involved.
          >
          > Ron Jeffries
          > www.XProgramming.com
          > I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
          > Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
          > Yin and Yang I figure.
          > -- Tom Jeffries
        • Steven Gordon
          Naming/branding, marketing and ease of adoption are big factors in growth rate. Of course, growth rate was never a primary objective of XP. SteveG ...
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 20, 2011
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            Naming/branding, marketing and ease of adoption are big factors in growth
            rate.

            Of course, growth rate was never a primary objective of XP.

            SteveG

            On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:50 AM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread
            > 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
            >
            > It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure.
            > If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section
            > of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jonathan Harley
            Understanding is a biggie too. I once had a QA Manager ask, So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff is better quality software? I was stunned.. ...
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 21, 2011
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              Understanding is a biggie too.

              I once had a "QA Manager" ask, "So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff is
              better quality software?"

              I was stunned..

              On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Naming/branding, marketing and ease of adoption are big factors in growth
              > rate.
              >
              > Of course, growth rate was never a primary objective of XP.
              >
              > SteveG
              >
              > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:50 AM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...
              > >wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > > It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread
              > > 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
              > >
              > > It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently
              > endure.
              > > If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a
              > cross-section
              > > of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • RonJeffries
              Hi Jonathan, ... Did you inquire what more they were hoping for? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 22, 2011
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                Hi Jonathan,

                On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Jonathan Harley wrote:

                > I once had a "QA Manager" ask, "So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff is
                > better quality software?"
                >
                > I was stunned..


                Did you inquire what more they were hoping for?

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                Yin and Yang I figure.
                -- Tom Jeffries



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jonathan Harley
                Hey Ron, I expect she was thinking along the lines of a choir of singing angels.. :-) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 22, 2011
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                  Hey Ron,

                  I expect she was thinking along the lines of a choir of singing angels.. :-)

                  On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:06 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Jonathan,
                  >
                  >
                  > On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Jonathan Harley wrote:
                  >
                  > > I once had a "QA Manager" ask, "So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff
                  > is
                  > > better quality software?"
                  > >
                  > > I was stunned..
                  >
                  > Did you inquire what more they were hoping for?
                  >
                  > Ron Jeffries
                  > www.XProgramming.com
                  > I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                  > Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                  > Yin and Yang I figure.
                  > -- Tom Jeffries
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • JeffGrigg
                  ... Write it up on a story card. We can figure out how to sing...
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 22, 2011
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                    --- Jonathan Harley <jdharley@...> wrote:
                    > I expect she was thinking along the lines of a choir
                    > of singing angels.. :-)

                    Write it up on a story card.
                    We can figure out how to sing...

                    >;->
                  • Tim Ottinger
                    ...   Tim Ottinger http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/ http://agileotter.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 23, 2011
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                      >________________________________
                      >From: MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>
                      >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      >Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 9:50 AM
                      >Subject: [XP] Re: Relevance of XP in Modern era
                      >
                      >It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
                      >
                      >It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure.  If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
                      >
                      >I don't worry about it. After all, these days SCRUM is just the box XP comes in. If they go scrum, they'll just be that much more ready for XP in a few months.
                       
                      Tim Ottinger
                      http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                      http://agileotter.blogspot.com/

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • D.André Dhondt
                      ... Hmmmm, it s not a competition--and it s not fair to call XP insular. Didn t the xUnit frameworks sweep across the whole industry? Weren t the XP founders
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 26, 2011
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                        On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        > ...Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to
                        > appeal to an insular community.
                        >
                        Hmmmm, it's not a competition--and it's not fair to call XP insular. Didn't
                        the xUnit frameworks sweep across the whole industry? Weren't the XP
                        founders on C2, the original wiki? The ideas from there, as well as the
                        technology, have spread even beyond the industry to the mainstream masses...
                        No, XP is not insular. That's why I stay on this list--our community is
                        always bringing in new ideas to share with one another.


                        --
                        D. André Dhondt
                        mobile: 215-805-0819
                        skype: d.andre.dhondt
                        twitter: adhondt http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/

                        Support low-cost conferences -- http://AgileTour.org/
                        If you're in the area, join Agile Philly http://www.AgilePhilly.com


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Kevin
                        I struggle to see how a software team can be agile without adopting XP disciplines too. Kevin
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 30, 2011
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                          I struggle to see how a software team can be agile without adopting XP disciplines too.


                          Kevin

                          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >________________________________
                          > >From: MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>
                          > >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 9:50 AM
                          > >Subject: [XP] Re: Relevance of XP in Modern era
                          > >
                          > >It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
                          > >
                          > >It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure.  If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
                          > >
                          > >I don't worry about it. After all, these days SCRUM is just the box XP comes in. If they go scrum, they'll just be that much more ready for XP in a few months.
                          >  
                          > Tim Ottinger
                          > http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                          > http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
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