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Re: [XP] Relevance of XP in Modern era

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  • Adam Sroka
    I am not measuring relevance in terms of popularity. That seems like a potentially dangerous way to make decisions ;-) XP is a complete software development
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 24, 2011
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      I am not measuring relevance in terms of popularity. That seems like a
      potentially dangerous way to make decisions ;-)

      XP is a complete software development approach that won't work in every
      environment (although pieces of it might.)

      Scrum is a product development framework that will work almost anywhere, but
      if you are going to do software development you are going to need to do more
      than just Scrum.

      Kanban is an operational management framework that will work almost
      anywhere, but, again, it doesn't stand alone. You need to know how to do
      product development AND software development in addition to Kanban.

      Lean and Agile are both complex, evolving collections of theories,
      principles, and practices that can be tremendously helpful but don't even
      begin to stand on their own.

      None of these are mutually exclusive. All are more or less compatible and
      where they aren't they provide options.
      On Jun 24, 2011 11:54 AM, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
      > --- Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
      >> There are those who believe that Scrum has superceded XP, ...
      >
      > When measured as the popularity of claiming to be doing "X", Scrum has
      probably surpassed XP. But even if more teams were doing Scrum well than XP,
      I would still prefer to measure based on effectiveness, rather than
      popularity. If we were to take "measure by popularity" seriously, then I
      think we'd find "ad-hoc, unstructured, responding to whims" to be the most
      popular and widely adopted approach. >;->
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • paul
      ... XP is essentially scrum for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 19, 2011
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        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
        >
        > XP will remain relevant until it is superceded by something more effective.
        > That hasn't happened yet.
        >
        > There are those who believe that Scrum has superceded XP, but IMHO those are
        > mostly folks who know more about managing IT organizations than about
        > crafting software. If Scrum were to incorporate *any software development
        > practices at all* then it might be competitive to XP, but unless they were
        > really amazing practices it still wouldn't supercede XP.
        > On Jun 23, 2011 4:29 AM, "Tay" <twzgerald@...> wrote:

        XP is essentially "scrum" for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.
      • RonJeffries
        Hello paul, ... That s not remotely correct. Scrum is roughly a very small subset of XP. There is strong evidence that convergent evolution was not involved.
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 19, 2011
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          Hello paul,

          On Aug 19, 2011, at 10:50 AM, paul wrote:

          > XP is essentially "scrum" for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.


          That's not remotely correct. Scrum is roughly a very small subset of XP. There is strong evidence that convergent evolution was not involved.

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
          Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
          Yin and Yang I figure.
          -- Tom Jeffries



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dave Rooney
          ... From Jeff Sutherland s blog in 2006: InfoQ and the Roots of Scrum http://scrum.jeffsutherland.com/2006/09/infoq-and-roots-of-scrum.html Essentially, Kent
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 19, 2011
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            On 2011-08-19, at 10:50 AM, paul wrote:

            >
            >
            > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> XP will remain relevant until it is superceded by something more effective.
            >> That hasn't happened yet.
            >>
            >> There are those who believe that Scrum has superceded XP, but IMHO those are
            >> mostly folks who know more about managing IT organizations than about
            >> crafting software. If Scrum were to incorporate *any software development
            >> practices at all* then it might be competitive to XP, but unless they were
            >> really amazing practices it still wouldn't supercede XP.
            >> On Jun 23, 2011 4:29 AM, "Tay" <twzgerald@...> wrote:
            >
            > XP is essentially "scrum" for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.
            >

            From Jeff Sutherland's blog in 2006: InfoQ and the Roots of Scrum http://scrum.jeffsutherland.com/2006/09/infoq-and-roots-of-scrum.html

            Essentially, Kent focused more on the technical practices, which was a direct result of the environment in which XP was born. Sutherland & Schwaber chose to focus on the project management practices.

            Dave Rooney | Agile Coach and Co-founder
            Westboro Systems - Agile Coaching, Training, Organizational Transformation.
            Blog | Twitter | LinkedIn



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          • MarvinToll.com
            It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread mind-share ... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community. It reminds a bit
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 20, 2011
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              It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.

              It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure. If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.

              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello paul,
              >
              > On Aug 19, 2011, at 10:50 AM, paul wrote:
              >
              > > XP is essentially "scrum" for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.
              >
              >
              > That's not remotely correct. Scrum is roughly a very small subset of XP. There is strong evidence that convergent evolution was not involved.
              >
              > Ron Jeffries
              > www.XProgramming.com
              > I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
              > Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
              > Yin and Yang I figure.
              > -- Tom Jeffries
            • Steven Gordon
              Naming/branding, marketing and ease of adoption are big factors in growth rate. Of course, growth rate was never a primary objective of XP. SteveG ...
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 20, 2011
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                Naming/branding, marketing and ease of adoption are big factors in growth
                rate.

                Of course, growth rate was never a primary objective of XP.

                SteveG

                On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:50 AM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread
                > 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
                >
                > It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure.
                > If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section
                > of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jonathan Harley
                Understanding is a biggie too. I once had a QA Manager ask, So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff is better quality software? I was stunned.. ...
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 21, 2011
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                  Understanding is a biggie too.

                  I once had a "QA Manager" ask, "So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff is
                  better quality software?"

                  I was stunned..

                  On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Naming/branding, marketing and ease of adoption are big factors in growth
                  > rate.
                  >
                  > Of course, growth rate was never a primary objective of XP.
                  >
                  > SteveG
                  >
                  > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:50 AM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...
                  > >wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread
                  > > 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
                  > >
                  > > It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently
                  > endure.
                  > > If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a
                  > cross-section
                  > > of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • RonJeffries
                  Hi Jonathan, ... Did you inquire what more they were hoping for? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 22, 2011
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                    Hi Jonathan,

                    On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Jonathan Harley wrote:

                    > I once had a "QA Manager" ask, "So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff is
                    > better quality software?"
                    >
                    > I was stunned..


                    Did you inquire what more they were hoping for?

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                    Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                    Yin and Yang I figure.
                    -- Tom Jeffries



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jonathan Harley
                    Hey Ron, I expect she was thinking along the lines of a choir of singing angels.. :-) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 22, 2011
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                      Hey Ron,

                      I expect she was thinking along the lines of a choir of singing angels.. :-)

                      On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:06 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Jonathan,
                      >
                      >
                      > On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Jonathan Harley wrote:
                      >
                      > > I once had a "QA Manager" ask, "So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff
                      > is
                      > > better quality software?"
                      > >
                      > > I was stunned..
                      >
                      > Did you inquire what more they were hoping for?
                      >
                      > Ron Jeffries
                      > www.XProgramming.com
                      > I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                      > Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                      > Yin and Yang I figure.
                      > -- Tom Jeffries
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • JeffGrigg
                      ... Write it up on a story card. We can figure out how to sing...
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 22, 2011
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                        --- Jonathan Harley <jdharley@...> wrote:
                        > I expect she was thinking along the lines of a choir
                        > of singing angels.. :-)

                        Write it up on a story card.
                        We can figure out how to sing...

                        >;->
                      • Tim Ottinger
                        ...   Tim Ottinger http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/ http://agileotter.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 23, 2011
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                          >________________________________
                          >From: MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>
                          >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          >Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 9:50 AM
                          >Subject: [XP] Re: Relevance of XP in Modern era
                          >
                          >It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
                          >
                          >It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure.  If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
                          >
                          >I don't worry about it. After all, these days SCRUM is just the box XP comes in. If they go scrum, they'll just be that much more ready for XP in a few months.
                           
                          Tim Ottinger
                          http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                          http://agileotter.blogspot.com/

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • D.André Dhondt
                          ... Hmmmm, it s not a competition--and it s not fair to call XP insular. Didn t the xUnit frameworks sweep across the whole industry? Weren t the XP founders
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 26, 2011
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                            On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            > ...Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to
                            > appeal to an insular community.
                            >
                            Hmmmm, it's not a competition--and it's not fair to call XP insular. Didn't
                            the xUnit frameworks sweep across the whole industry? Weren't the XP
                            founders on C2, the original wiki? The ideas from there, as well as the
                            technology, have spread even beyond the industry to the mainstream masses...
                            No, XP is not insular. That's why I stay on this list--our community is
                            always bringing in new ideas to share with one another.


                            --
                            D. André Dhondt
                            mobile: 215-805-0819
                            skype: d.andre.dhondt
                            twitter: adhondt http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/

                            Support low-cost conferences -- http://AgileTour.org/
                            If you're in the area, join Agile Philly http://www.AgilePhilly.com


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Kevin
                            I struggle to see how a software team can be agile without adopting XP disciplines too. Kevin
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 30, 2011
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                              I struggle to see how a software team can be agile without adopting XP disciplines too.


                              Kevin

                              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >________________________________
                              > >From: MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>
                              > >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              > >Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 9:50 AM
                              > >Subject: [XP] Re: Relevance of XP in Modern era
                              > >
                              > >It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
                              > >
                              > >It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure.  If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
                              > >
                              > >I don't worry about it. After all, these days SCRUM is just the box XP comes in. If they go scrum, they'll just be that much more ready for XP in a few months.
                              >  
                              > Tim Ottinger
                              > http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                              > http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
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