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Re: [XP] Relevance of XP in Modern era

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... Um, is less than 15 years old, first book was about 2000. Modern? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com To tolerate a problem is to insist on it. -- Software
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 19, 2011
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      Hello, Tay. On Sunday, June 19, 2011, at 2:42:13 AM, you wrote:

      > As we have known, XP have been on the scene for quite a while.
      > May I here some opinions from anyone or links to possible
      > articles, on how XP is still relevant in the modern era despite
      > being around for quite sometime ?

      Um, is less than 15 years old, first book was about 2000. Modern?

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      To tolerate a problem is to insist on it. -- Software for Your Head
    • Nayan Hajratwala
      ... Oh, sure Ron, like you would know. I remember when my grandpappy used to tell me about how they did XP barefoot & uphill on an abacus. (Happy father s
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 19, 2011
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        On Jun 19, 2011, at 7:01 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:

        > Hello, Tay. On Sunday, June 19, 2011, at 2:42:13 AM, you wrote:
        >
        > > articles, on how XP is still relevant in the modern era despite
        > > being around for quite sometime ?
        >
        > Um, is less than 15 years old, first book was about 2000. Modern?

        Oh, sure Ron, like you would know. I remember when my grandpappy used to tell me about how they did XP barefoot & uphill on an abacus.

        (Happy father's day!)

        ---
        Nayan Hajratwala
        http://agileshrugged.com
        http://twitter.com/nhajratw
        734.658.6032
      • John Roth
        ... I m not sure what your question is about, since I haven t seen enough of a change in software development in the last 15 years to justify the term modern
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 19, 2011
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          On 6/19/11 12:42 AM, Tay wrote:
          >
          > As we have known, XP have been on the scene for quite a while. May I
          > here some opinions from anyone or links to possible articles, on how
          > XP is still relevant in the modern era despite being around for quite
          > sometime ?
          >
          > Thanks.
          >
          I'm not sure what your question is about, since I haven't seen enough of
          a change in software development in the last 15 years to justify the
          term "modern era." Could you clarify what has happened to call this a
          "modern era?"

          John Roth





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • JeffGrigg
          ... Dittos. XP was invented in the smalltalk environment. Most of the Java platform (the JVM) and Microsoft s CLR are based on concepts from smalltalk, LISP
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 20, 2011
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            > --- Tay wrote:
            >> ... how XP is still relevant in the modern era despite
            >> being around for quite sometime ?

            --- John Roth <JohnRoth1@...> wrote:
            > I'm not sure what your question is about, since I haven't seen
            > enough of a change in software development in the last 15 years
            > to justify the term "modern era." Could you clarify what has
            > happened to call this a "modern era?"

            Dittos.

            XP was invented in the smalltalk environment. Most of the Java platform (the JVM) and Microsoft's CLR are based on concepts from smalltalk, LISP and related tools. When the JVM and CLR, as we know them now, are considered quaint and outdated ideas, given the substantially better tools we have at our disposal, then I'd say that we're in a different "era" than the one for which XP was developed.

            Even so, we'd have to find something better and more appropriate to for solving our automation/development problems before we could throw away XP.

            Personally, I think that the next "era" in software development will involve languages and tools that enable massively parallel processing to be done easily. (Functional programming shows some promise, but I'm still looking. I don't think we've found "it" yet.) So... Will XP be a good approach for writing massively parallel software? Can TDD be used to write such software? Well... It's hard to know for sure, but until something better comes along, the XP approach still looks like a pretty good bet.
          • Tim Ottinger
            ... http://pragprog.com/magazines/2011-05/agile-reflections Tim Ottinger http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/ http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 20, 2011
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              ----- Original Message ----
              > From: Tay <twzgerald@...>
              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sun, June 19, 2011 1:42:13 AM
              > Subject: [XP] Relevance of XP in Modern era
              >
              > As we have known, XP have been on the scene for quite a while. May I here some
              >opinions from anyone or links to possible articles, on how XP is still relevant
              >in the modern era despite being around for quite sometime ?
              >


              http://pragprog.com/magazines/2011-05/agile-reflections
              Tim Ottinger
              http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
              http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
            • D.André Dhondt
              ... XP has changed--it supports a very relational perspective, and tends to be absorbed by, or to absorb, other things in the environment. Take, for example,
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 21, 2011
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                On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 2:42 AM, Tay <twzgerald@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                > ...May I here some opinions from anyone or links to possible articles, on
                > how XP is still relevant in the modern era
                >
                XP has changed--it supports a very relational perspective, and tends to be
                absorbed by, or to absorb, other things in the environment. Take, for
                example, the impact that Lean thinking, and then the Lean Startup movement,
                have had on us. Regardless of this change, the core of XP, to me, is about
                getting people to communicate better about software--and that problem will
                be relevant as long as people are writing software.

                --
                D. André Dhondt
                mobile: 215-805-0819
                skype: d.andre.dhondt
                twitter: adhondt http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/

                Support low-cost conferences -- http://AgileTour.org/
                If you're in the area, join Agile Philly http://www.AgilePhilly.com


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Chet Hendrickson
                Hello Tay, Don t know. What ve you got that s better? chet Sunday, June 19, 2011, 2:42:13 AM, you wrote: As we have known, XP have been on the scene for quite
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 21, 2011
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                  Hello Tay,

                  Don't know. What've you got that's better?

                  chet

                  Sunday, June 19, 2011, 2:42:13 AM, you wrote:



                  As we have known, XP have been on the scene for quite a while. May I here some opinions from anyone or links to possible articles, on how XP is still relevant in the modern era despite being around for quite sometime ?

                  Thanks.






                  --
                  Best regards,
                  Chet Hendrickson mailto:lists@...
                  Check out our upcoming CSM Plus courses @
                  http://hendricksonxp.com/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=28

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Tay
                  Hi John, to clarify my question, I was intending to ask how have XP stayed relevant to software developments and up till these days, XP is still in great use.
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 23, 2011
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                    Hi John, to clarify my question, I was intending to ask how have XP stayed relevant to software developments and up till these days, XP is still in great use.

                    Thanks.

                    --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, John Roth <JohnRoth1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On 6/19/11 12:42 AM, Tay wrote:
                    > >
                    > > As we have known, XP have been on the scene for quite a while. May I
                    > > here some opinions from anyone or links to possible articles, on how
                    > > XP is still relevant in the modern era despite being around for quite
                    > > sometime ?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks.
                    > >
                    > I'm not sure what your question is about, since I haven't seen enough of
                    > a change in software development in the last 15 years to justify the
                    > term "modern era." Could you clarify what has happened to call this a
                    > "modern era?"
                    >
                    > John Roth
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Tay
                    Hi chet. I am asking for advise on how and what makes XP so widely popular for such a long time and how and the reason, why, it would remain popular in the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 23, 2011
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                      Hi chet. I am asking for advise on how and what makes XP so widely popular for such a long time and how and the reason, why, it would remain popular in the further too ?


                      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Chet Hendrickson <lists@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Tay,
                      >
                      > Don't know. What've you got that's better?
                      >
                      > chet
                      >
                      > Sunday, June 19, 2011, 2:42:13 AM, you wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > As we have known, XP have been on the scene for quite a while. May I here some opinions from anyone or links to possible articles, on how XP is still relevant in the modern era despite being around for quite sometime ?
                      >
                      > Thanks.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Best regards,
                      > Chet Hendrickson mailto:lists@...
                      > Check out our upcoming CSM Plus courses @
                      > http://hendricksonxp.com/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=28
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Steven Gordon
                      I am not Chet, but here is my take: Because XP is an effective starting point for doing software development which facilitates each team making its own local
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 23, 2011
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                        I am not Chet, but here is my take:

                        Because XP is an effective starting point for doing software development
                        which facilitates each team making its own local improvements to continue
                        being effective in light of its own particular dynamic organizational and
                        project context.

                        Because XP is *not* a prescriptive, static process, it is totally
                        unnecessary to change its definition much over time, if at all. There is
                        sufficient flexibility already built into XP for each team to adapt its own
                        process (which started as vanilla XP) as necessary.

                        SteveG

                        On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 1:58 AM, Tay <twzgerald@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi chet. I am asking for advise on how and what makes XP so widely popular
                        > for such a long time and how and the reason, why, it would remain popular in
                        > the further too ?
                        >
                        > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Chet Hendrickson <lists@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello Tay,
                        > >
                        > > Don't know. What've you got that's better?
                        > >
                        > > chet
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Sunday, June 19, 2011, 2:42:13 AM, you wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > As we have known, XP have been on the scene for quite a while. May I here
                        > some opinions from anyone or links to possible articles, on how XP is still
                        > relevant in the modern era despite being around for quite sometime ?
                        > >
                        > > Thanks.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > Best regards,
                        > > Chet Hendrickson mailto:lists@...
                        > > Check out our upcoming CSM Plus courses @
                        > > http://hendricksonxp.com/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=28
                        >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John Roth
                        I see. A little bit of a language snarl. XP is still around because the fundamental principles work, and provide a basis for a working methodology. To expand
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 23, 2011
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                          I see. A little bit of a language snarl. XP is still around because the
                          fundamental principles work, and provide a basis for a working methodology.

                          To expand on what Steve Gordon said, there's been quite a bit of
                          expansion. Back in 2000 you had to build your own continuous integration
                          server if you wanted one. Today there are a variety to choose from. The
                          Python team uses one called Buildbot that makes sure that their changes
                          keep running on ten different systems for three maintained releases.
                          It's open source and widely used. There are several others.

                          In the second edition of XP Explained, Kent mentioned continuous
                          deployment as an advanced practice. Today there are several deployment
                          servers. There are people experimenting with Kanban instead of
                          iterations. It's remarkably adaptable to local needs while maintaining
                          its core integrity.

                          All of this is possible because the values and principles form a firm
                          and workable foundation.

                          John Roth

                          On 6/23/11 2:36 AM, Tay wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi John, to clarify my question, I was intending to ask how have XP
                          > stayed relevant to software developments and up till these days, XP is
                          > still in great use.
                          >
                          > Thanks.
                          >
                          > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, John Roth
                          > <JohnRoth1@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > On 6/19/11 12:42 AM, Tay wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > As we have known, XP have been on the scene for quite a while. May I
                          > > > here some opinions from anyone or links to possible articles, on how
                          > > > XP is still relevant in the modern era despite being around for quite
                          > > > sometime ?
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks.
                          > > >
                          > > I'm not sure what your question is about, since I haven't seen
                          > enough of
                          > > a change in software development in the last 15 years to justify the
                          > > term "modern era." Could you clarify what has happened to call this a
                          > > "modern era?"
                          > >
                          > > John Roth
                          > >
                          > >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Adam Sroka
                          XP will remain relevant until it is superceded by something more effective. That hasn t happened yet. There are those who believe that Scrum has superceded XP,
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 23, 2011
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                            XP will remain relevant until it is superceded by something more effective.
                            That hasn't happened yet.

                            There are those who believe that Scrum has superceded XP, but IMHO those are
                            mostly folks who know more about managing IT organizations than about
                            crafting software. If Scrum were to incorporate *any software development
                            practices at all* then it might be competitive to XP, but unless they were
                            really amazing practices it still wouldn't supercede XP.
                            On Jun 23, 2011 4:29 AM, "Tay" <twzgerald@...> wrote:


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • JeffGrigg
                            ... When measured as the popularity of claiming to be doing X , Scrum has probably surpassed XP. But even if more teams were doing Scrum well than XP, I
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 24, 2011
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                              --- Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                              > There are those who believe that Scrum has superceded XP, ...

                              When measured as the popularity of claiming to be doing "X", Scrum has probably surpassed XP. But even if more teams were doing Scrum well than XP, I would still prefer to measure based on effectiveness, rather than popularity. If we were to take "measure by popularity" seriously, then I think we'd find "ad-hoc, unstructured, responding to whims" to be the most popular and widely adopted approach. >;->
                            • Charlie Poole
                              Scrum is marketed quite intensively, for commercial reasons. So it stands to reason that the name would be out there more than XP. Charlie ... [Non-text
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 24, 2011
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                                Scrum is marketed quite intensively, for commercial reasons. So it
                                stands to reason that the name would be "out there" more than XP.

                                Charlie

                                On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 9:54 AM, JeffGrigg <jeffreytoddgrigg@...>wrote:

                                > **
                                >
                                >
                                > --- Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                                > > There are those who believe that Scrum has superceded XP, ...
                                >
                                > When measured as the popularity of claiming to be doing "X", Scrum has
                                > probably surpassed XP. But even if more teams were doing Scrum well than XP,
                                > I would still prefer to measure based on effectiveness, rather than
                                > popularity. If we were to take "measure by popularity" seriously, then I
                                > think we'd find "ad-hoc, unstructured, responding to whims" to be the most
                                > popular and widely adopted approach. >;->
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Adam Sroka
                                I am not measuring relevance in terms of popularity. That seems like a potentially dangerous way to make decisions ;-) XP is a complete software development
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 24, 2011
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                                  I am not measuring relevance in terms of popularity. That seems like a
                                  potentially dangerous way to make decisions ;-)

                                  XP is a complete software development approach that won't work in every
                                  environment (although pieces of it might.)

                                  Scrum is a product development framework that will work almost anywhere, but
                                  if you are going to do software development you are going to need to do more
                                  than just Scrum.

                                  Kanban is an operational management framework that will work almost
                                  anywhere, but, again, it doesn't stand alone. You need to know how to do
                                  product development AND software development in addition to Kanban.

                                  Lean and Agile are both complex, evolving collections of theories,
                                  principles, and practices that can be tremendously helpful but don't even
                                  begin to stand on their own.

                                  None of these are mutually exclusive. All are more or less compatible and
                                  where they aren't they provide options.
                                  On Jun 24, 2011 11:54 AM, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                                  > --- Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                                  >> There are those who believe that Scrum has superceded XP, ...
                                  >
                                  > When measured as the popularity of claiming to be doing "X", Scrum has
                                  probably surpassed XP. But even if more teams were doing Scrum well than XP,
                                  I would still prefer to measure based on effectiveness, rather than
                                  popularity. If we were to take "measure by popularity" seriously, then I
                                  think we'd find "ad-hoc, unstructured, responding to whims" to be the most
                                  popular and widely adopted approach. >;->
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • paul
                                  ... XP is essentially scrum for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 19 7:50 AM
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                                    --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > XP will remain relevant until it is superceded by something more effective.
                                    > That hasn't happened yet.
                                    >
                                    > There are those who believe that Scrum has superceded XP, but IMHO those are
                                    > mostly folks who know more about managing IT organizations than about
                                    > crafting software. If Scrum were to incorporate *any software development
                                    > practices at all* then it might be competitive to XP, but unless they were
                                    > really amazing practices it still wouldn't supercede XP.
                                    > On Jun 23, 2011 4:29 AM, "Tay" <twzgerald@...> wrote:

                                    XP is essentially "scrum" for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.
                                  • RonJeffries
                                    Hello paul, ... That s not remotely correct. Scrum is roughly a very small subset of XP. There is strong evidence that convergent evolution was not involved.
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 19 8:03 AM
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                                      Hello paul,

                                      On Aug 19, 2011, at 10:50 AM, paul wrote:

                                      > XP is essentially "scrum" for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.


                                      That's not remotely correct. Scrum is roughly a very small subset of XP. There is strong evidence that convergent evolution was not involved.

                                      Ron Jeffries
                                      www.XProgramming.com
                                      I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                                      Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                                      Yin and Yang I figure.
                                      -- Tom Jeffries



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Dave Rooney
                                      ... From Jeff Sutherland s blog in 2006: InfoQ and the Roots of Scrum http://scrum.jeffsutherland.com/2006/09/infoq-and-roots-of-scrum.html Essentially, Kent
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 19 8:09 AM
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                                        On 2011-08-19, at 10:50 AM, paul wrote:

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >> XP will remain relevant until it is superceded by something more effective.
                                        >> That hasn't happened yet.
                                        >>
                                        >> There are those who believe that Scrum has superceded XP, but IMHO those are
                                        >> mostly folks who know more about managing IT organizations than about
                                        >> crafting software. If Scrum were to incorporate *any software development
                                        >> practices at all* then it might be competitive to XP, but unless they were
                                        >> really amazing practices it still wouldn't supercede XP.
                                        >> On Jun 23, 2011 4:29 AM, "Tay" <twzgerald@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > XP is essentially "scrum" for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.
                                        >

                                        From Jeff Sutherland's blog in 2006: InfoQ and the Roots of Scrum http://scrum.jeffsutherland.com/2006/09/infoq-and-roots-of-scrum.html

                                        Essentially, Kent focused more on the technical practices, which was a direct result of the environment in which XP was born. Sutherland & Schwaber chose to focus on the project management practices.

                                        Dave Rooney | Agile Coach and Co-founder
                                        Westboro Systems - Agile Coaching, Training, Organizational Transformation.
                                        Blog | Twitter | LinkedIn



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                                      • MarvinToll.com
                                        It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread mind-share ... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community. It reminds a bit
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Aug 20 7:50 AM
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                                          It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.

                                          It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure. If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.

                                          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello paul,
                                          >
                                          > On Aug 19, 2011, at 10:50 AM, paul wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > XP is essentially "scrum" for software projects. Its just a case of convergent evolution.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > That's not remotely correct. Scrum is roughly a very small subset of XP. There is strong evidence that convergent evolution was not involved.
                                          >
                                          > Ron Jeffries
                                          > www.XProgramming.com
                                          > I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                                          > Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                                          > Yin and Yang I figure.
                                          > -- Tom Jeffries
                                        • Steven Gordon
                                          Naming/branding, marketing and ease of adoption are big factors in growth rate. Of course, growth rate was never a primary objective of XP. SteveG ...
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Aug 20 10:20 AM
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                                            Naming/branding, marketing and ease of adoption are big factors in growth
                                            rate.

                                            Of course, growth rate was never a primary objective of XP.

                                            SteveG

                                            On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:50 AM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>wrote:

                                            > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread
                                            > 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
                                            >
                                            > It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure.
                                            > If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section
                                            > of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Jonathan Harley
                                            Understanding is a biggie too. I once had a QA Manager ask, So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff is better quality software? I was stunned.. ...
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Aug 21 8:18 AM
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                                              Understanding is a biggie too.

                                              I once had a "QA Manager" ask, "So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff is
                                              better quality software?"

                                              I was stunned..

                                              On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:

                                              > **
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Naming/branding, marketing and ease of adoption are big factors in growth
                                              > rate.
                                              >
                                              > Of course, growth rate was never a primary objective of XP.
                                              >
                                              > SteveG
                                              >
                                              > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:50 AM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...
                                              > >wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > **
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread
                                              > > 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
                                              > >
                                              > > It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently
                                              > endure.
                                              > > If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a
                                              > cross-section
                                              > > of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • RonJeffries
                                              Hi Jonathan, ... Did you inquire what more they were hoping for? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Aug 22 6:06 AM
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                                                Hi Jonathan,

                                                On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Jonathan Harley wrote:

                                                > I once had a "QA Manager" ask, "So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff is
                                                > better quality software?"
                                                >
                                                > I was stunned..


                                                Did you inquire what more they were hoping for?

                                                Ron Jeffries
                                                www.XProgramming.com
                                                I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                                                Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                                                Yin and Yang I figure.
                                                -- Tom Jeffries



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Jonathan Harley
                                                Hey Ron, I expect she was thinking along the lines of a choir of singing angels.. :-) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Aug 22 6:50 AM
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                                                  Hey Ron,

                                                  I expect she was thinking along the lines of a choir of singing angels.. :-)

                                                  On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:06 AM, RonJeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                                                  > **
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi Jonathan,
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Jonathan Harley wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > I once had a "QA Manager" ask, "So, all I get from this Test-Driven stuff
                                                  > is
                                                  > > better quality software?"
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I was stunned..
                                                  >
                                                  > Did you inquire what more they were hoping for?
                                                  >
                                                  > Ron Jeffries
                                                  > www.XProgramming.com
                                                  > I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                                                  > Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                                                  > Yin and Yang I figure.
                                                  > -- Tom Jeffries
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • JeffGrigg
                                                  ... Write it up on a story card. We can figure out how to sing...
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Aug 22 4:07 PM
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                                                    --- Jonathan Harley <jdharley@...> wrote:
                                                    > I expect she was thinking along the lines of a choir
                                                    > of singing angels.. :-)

                                                    Write it up on a story card.
                                                    We can figure out how to sing...

                                                    >;->
                                                  • Tim Ottinger
                                                    ...   Tim Ottinger http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/ http://agileotter.blogspot.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Aug 23 7:58 PM
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                                                      >________________________________
                                                      >From: MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>
                                                      >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 9:50 AM
                                                      >Subject: [XP] Re: Relevance of XP in Modern era
                                                      >
                                                      >It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
                                                      >
                                                      >It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure.  If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
                                                      >
                                                      >I don't worry about it. After all, these days SCRUM is just the box XP comes in. If they go scrum, they'll just be that much more ready for XP in a few months.
                                                       
                                                      Tim Ottinger
                                                      http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                                                      http://agileotter.blogspot.com/

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • D.André Dhondt
                                                      ... Hmmmm, it s not a competition--and it s not fair to call XP insular. Didn t the xUnit frameworks sweep across the whole industry? Weren t the XP founders
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Aug 26 10:51 AM
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                                                        On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>wrote:

                                                        > **
                                                        >
                                                        > ...Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to
                                                        > appeal to an insular community.
                                                        >
                                                        Hmmmm, it's not a competition--and it's not fair to call XP insular. Didn't
                                                        the xUnit frameworks sweep across the whole industry? Weren't the XP
                                                        founders on C2, the original wiki? The ideas from there, as well as the
                                                        technology, have spread even beyond the industry to the mainstream masses...
                                                        No, XP is not insular. That's why I stay on this list--our community is
                                                        always bringing in new ideas to share with one another.


                                                        --
                                                        D. André Dhondt
                                                        mobile: 215-805-0819
                                                        skype: d.andre.dhondt
                                                        twitter: adhondt http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/

                                                        Support low-cost conferences -- http://AgileTour.org/
                                                        If you're in the area, join Agile Philly http://www.AgilePhilly.com


                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Kevin
                                                        I struggle to see how a software team can be agile without adopting XP disciplines too. Kevin
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Sep 30, 2011
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                                                          I struggle to see how a software team can be agile without adopting XP disciplines too.


                                                          Kevin

                                                          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > >________________________________
                                                          > >From: MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>
                                                          > >To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > >Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 9:50 AM
                                                          > >Subject: [XP] Re: Relevance of XP in Modern era
                                                          > >
                                                          > >It has been a disappointment to me that Scrum has received widespread 'mind-share'... while XP has tended to appeal to an insular community.
                                                          > >
                                                          > >It reminds a bit of the struggle professional orchestras currently endure.  If they remain technically excellent but fail to appeal to a cross-section of the community funding sometimes becomes a problem.
                                                          > >
                                                          > >I don't worry about it. After all, these days SCRUM is just the box XP comes in. If they go scrum, they'll just be that much more ready for XP in a few months.
                                                          >  
                                                          > Tim Ottinger
                                                          > http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                                                          > http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
                                                          >
                                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >
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