Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Agile challenges

Expand Messages
  • hennahsugumaran
    Hello guys, I wanted to know the Challenges that the agile developers face in the dispersed environment (i.e. when the developers in a team is spread across
    Message 1 of 11 , May 5, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello guys,

      I wanted to know the Challenges that the agile developers face in the dispersed environment (i.e. when the developers in a team is spread across the various places). The real time challenges.


      Hennah.
    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello, hennahsugumaran. On Thursday, May 5, 2011, at 10:54:45 AM, ... Have you thought about this much? Have you worked in both situations? What did you
      Message 2 of 11 , May 5, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello, hennahsugumaran. On Thursday, May 5, 2011, at 10:54:45 AM,
        you wrote:

        > I wanted to know the Challenges that the agile developers face in
        > the dispersed environment (i.e. when the developers in a team is
        > spread across the various places). The real time challenges.

        Have you thought about this much? Have you worked in both
        situations? What did you conclude in your thinking? What did you
        experience in your practice?

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get.
        -- Richard Gabriel
      • Tim Ottinger
        Five rules: 1) Don t 2) Dont treat remotes as locals. 3) Don t treat locals as remotes 4) Latitude hurts, longitude kills 5) Don t always be remote Take the
        Message 3 of 11 , May 6, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Five rules:
          1) Don't
          2) Dont' treat remotes as locals.
          3) Don't treat locals as remotes
          4) Latitude hurts, longitude kills
          5) Don't always be remote


          Take the first with a grain of salt. I'm once again a remote member of a team,
          so I see value in having remote members. We have to have special
          considerations, like skype, webex or yuuguu or teamviewer, distributed version
          control helps, phone numbers for when something bad happens, interoffice text
          chat, extra email conversations, etc.

          The second is dead serious. Remember that the remote is unable to move through
          the room, unable to eavesdrop on conversations in the bullpen, unable to see the
          signage and charts, and has limited visual range. It's like a handicap of sorts,
          but great people can overcome such things.

          The third is dead serious. Don't turn all your local people into remotes. Don't
          eliminate physical charts, card walls, and conversations. Ignore what you hear
          about agile tools being as good as physical presence, because it's not true.
          Keep your locals working like locals, and pair them with the remotes working as
          remotes.

          Fourth one is dead serious. Time zones suck. It's almost nice if you are
          centrally located to have peers one or two time zones earlier and some one or
          two time zones later, but a lack of "common hours" really screws up the pairing
          work.

          Fifth one is a joy. You want your remotes to come visit sometimes. It
          establishes a rapport, it builds a sense of team, and it's good to like the
          people you're compensating for. Definitely build a team with your remotes.

          Tim Ottinger
          http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
          http://agileotter.blogspot.com/



          ----- Original Message ----
          > From: hennahsugumaran <hennahsugumaran@...>
          > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 9:54:45 AM
          > Subject: [XP] Agile challenges
          >
          > Hello guys,
          >
          > I wanted to know the Challenges that the agile developers face in the
          >dispersed environment (i.e. when the developers in a team is spread across the
          >various places). The real time challenges.
          >
          >
          > Hennah.
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          >extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Jeff Langr
          Someone should put that on a card or something. (hint, hint, Tim!) Seriously, this is a great list. On #3 ( don t turn your local people into remotes )
          Message 4 of 11 , May 6, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Someone should put that on a card or something. (hint, hint, Tim!)

            Seriously, this is a great list. On #3 ("don't turn your local people into
            remotes") absolutely, don't insist that everyone deal with the
            far-less-effective agile PM tools to accommodate all the remote folks.
            But I'll also suggest that it's probably very useful to have the locals to
            experience the perspective and disadvantage of being remote.

            Teleconferences are interesting: of course it's far more effective for
            everyone to be chatting in the same room, face-to-face, but I'd say the next
            most effective is *everyone* online. I've seen mixes where half the people
            are in a room and the rest are on the phone go sour too often (usually one
            of these halves dominates).

            Jeff

            ps--Well, perhaps there is still a bit of life to beat out of this horse.

            Langr Software Solutions
            http://langrsoft.com
            http://agileinaflash.com <http://agileinaflash.com-->


            On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> wrote:

            > Five rules:
            > 1) Don't
            > 2) Dont' treat remotes as locals.
            > 3) Don't treat locals as remotes
            > 4) Latitude hurts, longitude kills
            > 5) Don't always be remote
            >
            >
            > Take the first with a grain of salt. I'm once again a remote member of a
            > team,
            > so I see value in having remote members. We have to have special
            > considerations, like skype, webex or yuuguu or teamviewer, distributed
            > version
            > control helps, phone numbers for when something bad happens, interoffice
            > text
            > chat, extra email conversations, etc.
            >
            > The second is dead serious. Remember that the remote is unable to move
            > through
            > the room, unable to eavesdrop on conversations in the bullpen, unable to
            > see the
            > signage and charts, and has limited visual range. It's like a handicap of
            > sorts,
            > but great people can overcome such things.
            >
            > The third is dead serious. Don't turn all your local people into remotes.
            > Don't
            > eliminate physical charts, card walls, and conversations. Ignore what you
            > hear
            > about agile tools being as good as physical presence, because it's not
            > true.
            > Keep your locals working like locals, and pair them with the remotes
            > working as
            > remotes.
            >
            > Fourth one is dead serious. Time zones suck. It's almost nice if you are
            > centrally located to have peers one or two time zones earlier and some one
            > or
            > two time zones later, but a lack of "common hours" really screws up the
            > pairing
            > work.
            >
            > Fifth one is a joy. You want your remotes to come visit sometimes. It
            > establishes a rapport, it builds a sense of team, and it's good to like the
            > people you're compensating for. Definitely build a team with your remotes.
            >
            > Tim Ottinger
            > http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
            > http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > > From: hennahsugumaran <hennahsugumaran@...>
            > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 9:54:45 AM
            > > Subject: [XP] Agile challenges
            > >
            > > Hello guys,
            > >
            > > I wanted to know the Challenges that the agile developers face in the
            > >dispersed environment (i.e. when the developers in a team is spread
            > across the
            > >various places). The real time challenges.
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dave Rooney
            ... LOL! I thought it was! :) Dave Rooney Agile Coach & Co-founder Westboro Systems http://www.westborosystems.com dave.rooney@westborosystems.com
            Message 5 of 11 , May 6, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              On 2011-05-06, at 10:48 AM, Jeff Langr <jeff@...> wrote:

              > Someone should put that on a card or something. (hint, hint, Tim!)

              LOL! I thought it was! :)

              Dave Rooney
              Agile Coach & Co-founder
              Westboro Systems
              http://www.westborosystems.com
              dave.rooney@...


              >
              > Seriously, this is a great list. On #3 ("don't turn your local people into
              > remotes") absolutely, don't insist that everyone deal with the
              > far-less-effective agile PM tools to accommodate all the remote folks.
              > But I'll also suggest that it's probably very useful to have the locals to
              > experience the perspective and disadvantage of being remote.
              >
              > Teleconferences are interesting: of course it's far more effective for
              > everyone to be chatting in the same room, face-to-face, but I'd say the next
              > most effective is *everyone* online. I've seen mixes where half the people
              > are in a room and the rest are on the phone go sour too often (usually one
              > of these halves dominates).
              >
              > Jeff
              >
              > ps--Well, perhaps there is still a bit of life to beat out of this horse.
              >
              > Langr Software Solutions
              > http://langrsoft.com
              > http://agileinaflash.com <http://agileinaflash.com-->
              >
              >
              > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> wrote:
              >
              >> Five rules:
              >> 1) Don't
              >> 2) Dont' treat remotes as locals.
              >> 3) Don't treat locals as remotes
              >> 4) Latitude hurts, longitude kills
              >> 5) Don't always be remote
              >>
              >>
              >> Take the first with a grain of salt. I'm once again a remote member of a
              >> team,
              >> so I see value in having remote members. We have to have special
              >> considerations, like skype, webex or yuuguu or teamviewer, distributed
              >> version
              >> control helps, phone numbers for when something bad happens, interoffice
              >> text
              >> chat, extra email conversations, etc.
              >>
              >> The second is dead serious. Remember that the remote is unable to move
              >> through
              >> the room, unable to eavesdrop on conversations in the bullpen, unable to
              >> see the
              >> signage and charts, and has limited visual range. It's like a handicap of
              >> sorts,
              >> but great people can overcome such things.
              >>
              >> The third is dead serious. Don't turn all your local people into remotes.
              >> Don't
              >> eliminate physical charts, card walls, and conversations. Ignore what you
              >> hear
              >> about agile tools being as good as physical presence, because it's not
              >> true.
              >> Keep your locals working like locals, and pair them with the remotes
              >> working as
              >> remotes.
              >>
              >> Fourth one is dead serious. Time zones suck. It's almost nice if you are
              >> centrally located to have peers one or two time zones earlier and some one
              >> or
              >> two time zones later, but a lack of "common hours" really screws up the
              >> pairing
              >> work.
              >>
              >> Fifth one is a joy. You want your remotes to come visit sometimes. It
              >> establishes a rapport, it builds a sense of team, and it's good to like the
              >> people you're compensating for. Definitely build a team with your remotes.
              >>
              >> Tim Ottinger
              >> http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
              >> http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ----- Original Message ----
              >>> From: hennahsugumaran <hennahsugumaran@...>
              >>> To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              >>> Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 9:54:45 AM
              >>> Subject: [XP] Agile challenges
              >>>
              >>> Hello guys,
              >>>
              >>> I wanted to know the Challenges that the agile developers face in the
              >>> dispersed environment (i.e. when the developers in a team is spread
              >> across the
              >>> various places). The real time challenges.
              >>
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              >
              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Keith Ray
              I noticed in Naomi Karten s book on presentations, she found out that 3 of the remote workers of the team she was presenting to, who were present via webex
              Message 6 of 11 , May 6, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                I noticed in Naomi Karten's book on presentations, she found out that 3 of
                the "remote" workers of the team she was presenting to, who were "present
                via webex" were only a few blocks away. They could have been physically
                present but chose not do -- and thus missed facial expressions and body
                language of both the presenter AND other members of their team.

                On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> wrote:
                ...
                >
                > The third is dead serious. Don't turn all your local people into remotes.
                > Don't
                > eliminate physical charts, card walls, and conversations. Ignore what you
                > hear
                > about agile tools being as good as physical presence, because it's not
                > true.
                > Keep your locals working like locals, and pair them with the remotes
                > working as
                > remotes.
                > --


                C. Keith Ray

                Coach, Trainer, and Developer at Industrial logic, Inc.
                http://industriallogic.com "Amplify Your Agility"
                Coaching and Live- and Web-based Training


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kim Gräsman
                Hi Tim, ... For team meetings, I think there s value in everybody being on the lowest common denominator as far as communication medium, e.g. if one team
                Message 7 of 11 , May 6, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Tim,

                  On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 16:14, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The third is dead serious. Don't turn all your local people into remotes. Don't
                  > eliminate physical charts, card walls, and conversations. Ignore what you hear
                  > about agile tools being as good as physical presence, because it's not true.
                  >  Keep your locals working like locals, and pair them with the remotes working as
                  > remotes.

                  For team meetings, I think there's value in everybody being on the
                  lowest common denominator as far as communication medium, e.g. if one
                  team member can only attend the daily stand-up on Skype, then do it
                  over skype for everybody, always.

                  This sounds counter-intuitive, but I think it's good for two reasons;

                  1) Everybody needs to make an effort to be understood over the
                  low-bandwidth medium. There's no "cheating", where local team members
                  pick things up from body language, but remotes don't get the joke
                  2) It's a sign of respect for the remote team member(s) -- they're on
                  the team, and they're not punished because they happen to be remote.

                  I picked this up from Jutta Eckstein's Agile Software Development with
                  Distributed Teams:
                  http://www.jeckstein.com/distributed-teams/

                  I like that book because it says "distributed/dispersed teams are
                  really hard to get working, but if you have to, here's how to build
                  your solutions on agile values".

                  For what it's worth,
                  - Kim
                • Buddha Buck
                  ... Hmmm, we have 5 guys in Ithaca, working in an open-plan office, and 1 guy in Philly. Hows that gonna work? When we had 4 guys and one moved to Portland,
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 6, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Kim Gräsman <kim.grasman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > For team meetings, I think there's value in everybody being on the
                    > lowest common denominator as far as communication medium, e.g. if one
                    > team member can only attend the daily stand-up on Skype, then do it
                    > over skype for everybody, always.


                    > This sounds counter-intuitive, but I think it's good for two reasons;
                    >
                    > 1) Everybody needs to make an effort to be understood over the
                    > low-bandwidth medium. There's no "cheating", where local team members
                    > pick things up from body language, but remotes don't get the joke
                    > 2) It's a sign of respect for the remote team member(s) -- they're on
                    > the team, and they're not punished because they happen to be remote.
                    >

                    Hmmm, we have 5 guys in Ithaca, working in an open-plan office, and 1 guy in
                    Philly. Hows that gonna work?

                    When we had 4 guys and one moved to Portland, everyone skyping in required
                    headsets to prevent horrible feedback and echo. Even with the headsets we
                    could hear the local people both directly and over skype.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • George Dinwiddie
                    Tim, ... What about a group trying to learn Agile? I ve not had as much distributed experience as you, probably, but I ve found it unlikely for a team to
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 6, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Tim,

                      On 5/6/11 10:14 AM, Tim Ottinger wrote:
                      > Five rules:
                      > 1) Don't
                      >
                      > Take the first with a grain of salt. I'm once again a remote member of a team,
                      > so I see value in having remote members. We have to have special
                      > considerations, like skype, webex or yuuguu or teamviewer, distributed version
                      > control helps, phone numbers for when something bad happens, interoffice text
                      > chat, extra email conversations, etc.

                      What about a group trying to learn Agile? I've not had as much
                      distributed experience as you, probably, but I've found it unlikely for
                      a team to learn Agile development when dispersed. People who already
                      have an understanding can notice when and what they need to do to
                      compensate for the distance.

                      - George

                      --
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                      Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                      Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    • Tim Ottinger
                      ... I would not recommend distributed for people who don t already have a handle on what they re doing technically, who aren t already connected with the team,
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 6, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > What about a group trying to learn Agile? I've not had as much
                        > distributed experience as you, probably, but I've found it unlikely for
                        > a team to learn Agile development when dispersed. People who already
                        > have an understanding can notice when and what they need to do to
                        > compensate for the distance.


                        I would not recommend distributed for people who don't already have a
                        handle on what they're doing technically, who aren't already connected
                        with the team, or who haven't done the agile thing before.

                        That said, I have definitely worked with remotes who knew the product
                        and the team but who have never been remote before, and some of
                        them turned out great. Others disconnected even more. I guess there
                        is some element of how much they want to be a part of it. Will
                        trumps talent and difficulty in most cases.

                        Tim Ottinger
                        http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                        http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
                      • Kim Gräsman
                        Hi Buddha, ... Yeah, I think headsets are a must. I suppose it feels a bit forced, but I d try focusing what I m saying and hearing through the headset, and
                        Message 11 of 11 , May 7, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Buddha,

                          On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 22:42, Buddha Buck <blaisepascal@...> wrote:
                          > On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Kim Gräsman <kim.grasman@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> For team meetings, I think there's value in everybody being on the
                          >> lowest common denominator as far as communication medium, e.g. if one
                          >> team member can only attend the daily stand-up on Skype, then do it
                          >> over skype for everybody, always.
                          >
                          >> This sounds counter-intuitive, but I think it's good for two reasons;
                          >>
                          >> 1) Everybody needs to make an effort to be understood over the
                          >> low-bandwidth medium. There's no "cheating", where local team members
                          >> pick things up from body language, but remotes don't get the joke
                          >> 2) It's a sign of respect for the remote team member(s) -- they're on
                          >> the team, and they're not punished because they happen to be remote.
                          >>
                          >
                          > Hmmm, we have 5 guys in Ithaca, working in an open-plan office, and 1 guy in
                          > Philly.  Hows that gonna work?
                          >
                          > When we had 4 guys and one moved to Portland, everyone skyping in required
                          > headsets to prevent horrible feedback and echo.  Even with the headsets we
                          > could hear the local people both directly and over skype.

                          Yeah, I think headsets are a must.

                          I suppose it feels a bit forced, but I'd try focusing what I'm saying
                          and hearing through the headset, and avoid the benefits of local
                          presence, *for the duration of the meeting*. For day-to-day pair work,
                          I'd use whatever-bandwidth communication is most useful for the
                          constellation.

                          Or just do whatever works ;-)

                          - Kim
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.