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Re: [MOD] Re: [XP] Re: Uncle Bob's "Restoring The Trust" video

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  • Rick Mugridge
    I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe. But when there s no longer
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 4 3:31 PM
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      I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often
      learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe.

      But when there's no longer any hope of a real, exploratory, learning
      dialog, I move on (or delete email without reading it).

      Cheers, Rick

      On 4/03/2011 10:04 p.m., ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
      >
      > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
      > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
      > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
      >
      > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
      > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
      >
      > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > R
      >
      > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
      > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
      >
      > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
      > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
      > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
      > >
      > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
      > another costly misdirection.
      > >
      > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
      > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
      > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
      > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
      > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
      > doing wrong.
      > >
      > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
      > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
      > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
      > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
      > >
      > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
      > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> ---
      > >>
      > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
      > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
      > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
      > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
      > over-emphasizing "unification."
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
      > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
      > >
      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
      > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
      > >
      > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Curtis Cooley
      ... is very low between the business people and the technical people. It s an old school place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need to
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 4 3:40 PM
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        On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 2:08 AM, JeffGrigg <jeffreytoddgrigg@...>wrote:

        >
        >
        > "Uncle Bob" posted a nice short (3 minute) video on the origin of The Agile
        > Manifesto, how we split, and where we should go from here:
        > http://cleancoder.posterous.com/stub6-restoring-the-trust
        >
        > This is nice and very appropriate at my current place of employ. The trust
        is very low between the business people and the technical people. It's an
        "old school" place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need
        to restore that trust, and re-unification is the most likely approach.

        I'm already discreetly introducing Kanban and value stream mapping to the
        PM's that will listen. My last value stream mapping session, one PM said
        this was the most useful analysis he's ever seen at this company. GRIN! We
        may just get a little agile movement going and be able to show how business
        people and technical people can work side by side and IT is not just a cost
        center.

        What does this have to do with XP? Well, I'm also trying to gather up the
        technical people that will listen and start an XP movement as well. The hope
        is to not only meet in the middle, but also introduce the XP practices the
        technical people will need to learn if any agile approach is going to work.

        It's better than sitting head down in a cube and coding all day.

        --
        Curtis Cooley
        curtis.cooley@...
        home:http://curtiscooley.com
        blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
        ===============
        Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
        must be without one, be without the strategy.
        -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tim Ottinger
        ... How about being less gooder? Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else you d go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 4 5:59 PM
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          > Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will

          > be welcome. :)

          How about being less gooder?

          Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else
          you'd go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza and skee ball from Morimoto's
          sushi restaurant, he should be directed to Chuck E's. Otherwise, he's ruining
          everyone's fine sushi dinner. Likewise, if he comes and complains every night
          because there's rice in the sushi, he's not a critic but a crank. Sushi has
          rice. That's what makes it sushi. Eat it or go to Chuck E's.

          I feel like I sat down to a $150.00 tasting menu, and my neighbor is complaining
          about the rice and ordering pizza and yelling at the waiters for not having
          skeeball. I'm not enjoying my meal. We've all had our say, and it's just
          circling back to the same-old same-old. Warnings have been issued. Next time,
          ban.

          Tim
        • Charlie Poole
          Hi Ron, The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I d like to feel that we can
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 4 8:51 PM
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            Hi Ron,

            The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it
            in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I'd like to feel that we
            can
            have a conversation around that without every thread being hijacked to
            argue for the peculiar re-definition of Agile that Marvin advocates.

            Of course, sometimes a thread just grows off in a different direction
            from where it started. But when it happens repeatedly, and each thread
            is taken in the same direction by the same person, I have to think that
            there is an intention to offend.

            Jeff's posting of Bob's video could have led to an interesting discussion
            well within the purpose of this group. It simply got hijacked. I made a
            post a while back that suffered the same fate.

            I suggest that you add systematic hijacking of threads to the list of
            things for which someone may be moderated or banned. Then give
            one or two warnings after which action should be taken.

            IMO, it's OK if Marvin wants to make posts about his views of where
            agile should go. So long as the subjects are clearly stated, anyone
            who is not interested can ignore them. It's when these views are
            repeatedly injected into other threads that I get annoyed.

            Charlie

            On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:04 AM, <ronjeffriesacm@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to
            > what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less
            > respectful of people both absent and present.
            >
            > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not
            > have a record of good decisions when irritated.
            >
            > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > R
            >
            >
            > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT
            > leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were
            > curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
            > >
            > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another
            > costly misdirection.
            > >
            > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
            > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a
            > strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that
            > failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope
            > included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
            > >
            > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA,
            > that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right ---
            > then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are
            > smarter than they are?
            > >
            > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg"
            > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
            > >>
            > >> ---
            > >>
            > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for
            > everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on
            > interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of
            > the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing
            > "unification."
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            >
            > >
            > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            > >
            > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            > >
            > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John Roth
            Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling. This is usually such a
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 5 2:03 AM
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              Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited
              post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling.

              This is usually such a pleasant group that people may have forgotten the
              first law of dealing with a troll: don't reply.

              John Roth

              On 3/4/11 2:04 AM, ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
              >
              > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
              > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
              > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
              >
              > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
              > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
              >
              > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > R
              >
              > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
              > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
              >
              > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
              > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
              > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
              > >
              > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
              > another costly misdirection.
              > >
              > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
              > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
              > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
              > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
              > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
              > doing wrong.
              > >
              > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
              > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
              > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
              > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
              > >
              > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
              > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> ---
              > >>
              > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
              > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
              > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
              > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
              > over-emphasizing "unification."
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
              > >
              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
              > >
              > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >



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