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Re: [MOD] Re: [XP] Re: Uncle Bob's "Restoring The Trust" video

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  • Curtis Cooley
    ... perhaps even contribute to the disrespectful language you mentioned and I ll try to do better. I tend to try and get my point across smugly sometimes.
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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      On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you
      > wrote:
      >
      >
      > > I plead "Guilty as charged."
      >
      > > Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
      > > even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.
      >
      > > We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.
      >
      > Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will
      > be welcome. :)
      >
      >
      > I see and appreciate your frustration, as I get frustrated as well. I
      perhaps even contribute to the "disrespectful language" you mentioned and
      I'll try to do better. I tend to try and get my point across smugly
      sometimes. It's a fault that goes way back.

      I do, however, often glean tidbits of information about agile and XP even
      when these threads go sideways. The signal to noise ratio is really high,
      but there is still good info in there sometimes.

      Perhaps, as a moderator, or perhaps any of us, one can, when we see threads
      going way off topic, simply reply and ask, "what does this topic have to do
      with XP?" Perhaps a gentle nudge will move things back on topic.

      I remember a wise man once told me how to handle employees who were
      misbehaving and holding up the team. He proposed a three step process:

      1. Take him aside and show him how is actions negatively affected the team
      2. Take him aside and explain that if he doesn't change, there will be
      consequences and tell him what they are
      3. Exercise the consequences

      For some reason I think that wise man was you, Ron :)
      --
      Curtis Cooley
      curtis.cooley@...
      home:http://curtiscooley.com
      blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
      ===============
      Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
      must be without one, be without the strategy.
      -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello, Curtis. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 11:24:17 AM, you ... You may have heard it from me. The idea belongs to Kent Beck. Good reminder though. :) Ron
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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        Hello, Curtis. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 11:24:17 AM, you
        wrote:

        > I remember a wise man once told me how to handle employees who were
        > misbehaving and holding up the team. He proposed a three step process:

        > 1. Take him aside and show him how is actions negatively affected the team
        > 2. Take him aside and explain that if he doesn't change, there will be
        > consequences and tell him what they are
        > 3. Exercise the consequences

        > For some reason I think that wise man was you, Ron :)

        You may have heard it from me. The idea belongs to Kent Beck.
        Good reminder though. :)

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Perfect is the enemy of The Good.
        But don't forget, so is The Half-Assed. -- J P Barlow
      • Rick Mugridge
        I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe. But when there s no longer
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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          I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often
          learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe.

          But when there's no longer any hope of a real, exploratory, learning
          dialog, I move on (or delete email without reading it).

          Cheers, Rick

          On 4/03/2011 10:04 p.m., ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
          >
          > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
          > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
          > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
          >
          > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
          > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
          >
          > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > R
          >
          > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
          > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
          >
          > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
          > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
          > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
          > >
          > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
          > another costly misdirection.
          > >
          > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
          > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
          > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
          > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
          > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
          > doing wrong.
          > >
          > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
          > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
          > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
          > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
          > >
          > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
          > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
          > >>
          > >> ---
          > >>
          > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
          > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
          > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
          > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
          > over-emphasizing "unification."
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
          > >
          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
          > >
          > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Curtis Cooley
          ... is very low between the business people and the technical people. It s an old school place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need to
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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            On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 2:08 AM, JeffGrigg <jeffreytoddgrigg@...>wrote:

            >
            >
            > "Uncle Bob" posted a nice short (3 minute) video on the origin of The Agile
            > Manifesto, how we split, and where we should go from here:
            > http://cleancoder.posterous.com/stub6-restoring-the-trust
            >
            > This is nice and very appropriate at my current place of employ. The trust
            is very low between the business people and the technical people. It's an
            "old school" place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need
            to restore that trust, and re-unification is the most likely approach.

            I'm already discreetly introducing Kanban and value stream mapping to the
            PM's that will listen. My last value stream mapping session, one PM said
            this was the most useful analysis he's ever seen at this company. GRIN! We
            may just get a little agile movement going and be able to show how business
            people and technical people can work side by side and IT is not just a cost
            center.

            What does this have to do with XP? Well, I'm also trying to gather up the
            technical people that will listen and start an XP movement as well. The hope
            is to not only meet in the middle, but also introduce the XP practices the
            technical people will need to learn if any agile approach is going to work.

            It's better than sitting head down in a cube and coding all day.

            --
            Curtis Cooley
            curtis.cooley@...
            home:http://curtiscooley.com
            blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
            ===============
            Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
            must be without one, be without the strategy.
            -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tim Ottinger
            ... How about being less gooder? Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else you d go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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              > Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will

              > be welcome. :)

              How about being less gooder?

              Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else
              you'd go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza and skee ball from Morimoto's
              sushi restaurant, he should be directed to Chuck E's. Otherwise, he's ruining
              everyone's fine sushi dinner. Likewise, if he comes and complains every night
              because there's rice in the sushi, he's not a critic but a crank. Sushi has
              rice. That's what makes it sushi. Eat it or go to Chuck E's.

              I feel like I sat down to a $150.00 tasting menu, and my neighbor is complaining
              about the rice and ordering pizza and yelling at the waiters for not having
              skeeball. I'm not enjoying my meal. We've all had our say, and it's just
              circling back to the same-old same-old. Warnings have been issued. Next time,
              ban.

              Tim
            • Charlie Poole
              Hi Ron, The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I d like to feel that we can
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                Hi Ron,

                The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it
                in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I'd like to feel that we
                can
                have a conversation around that without every thread being hijacked to
                argue for the peculiar re-definition of Agile that Marvin advocates.

                Of course, sometimes a thread just grows off in a different direction
                from where it started. But when it happens repeatedly, and each thread
                is taken in the same direction by the same person, I have to think that
                there is an intention to offend.

                Jeff's posting of Bob's video could have led to an interesting discussion
                well within the purpose of this group. It simply got hijacked. I made a
                post a while back that suffered the same fate.

                I suggest that you add systematic hijacking of threads to the list of
                things for which someone may be moderated or banned. Then give
                one or two warnings after which action should be taken.

                IMO, it's OK if Marvin wants to make posts about his views of where
                agile should go. So long as the subjects are clearly stated, anyone
                who is not interested can ignore them. It's when these views are
                repeatedly injected into other threads that I get annoyed.

                Charlie

                On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:04 AM, <ronjeffriesacm@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to
                > what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less
                > respectful of people both absent and present.
                >
                > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not
                > have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                >
                > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > R
                >
                >
                > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT
                > leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were
                > curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                > >
                > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another
                > costly misdirection.
                > >
                > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a
                > strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that
                > failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope
                > included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                > >
                > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA,
                > that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right ---
                > then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are
                > smarter than they are?
                > >
                > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg"
                > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> ---
                > >>
                > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for
                > everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on
                > interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of
                > the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing
                > "unification."
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                >
                > >
                > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                > >
                > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                > >
                > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Roth
                Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling. This is usually such a
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 5, 2011
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                  Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited
                  post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling.

                  This is usually such a pleasant group that people may have forgotten the
                  first law of dealing with a troll: don't reply.

                  John Roth

                  On 3/4/11 2:04 AM, ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
                  > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
                  > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
                  >
                  > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
                  > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                  >
                  > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  >
                  > R
                  >
                  > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
                  > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
                  > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
                  > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                  > >
                  > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
                  > another costly misdirection.
                  > >
                  > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                  > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
                  > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
                  > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
                  > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
                  > doing wrong.
                  > >
                  > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
                  > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
                  > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
                  > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
                  > >
                  > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
                  > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> ---
                  > >>
                  > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
                  > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
                  > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
                  > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
                  > over-emphasizing "unification."
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
                  > >
                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
                  > >
                  > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >



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