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Re: [MOD] Re: [XP] Re: Uncle Bob's "Restoring The Trust" video

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  • Ron Jeffries
    Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you ... Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will be welcome. :) Ron
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 4 5:18 AM
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      Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you
      wrote:

      > I plead "Guilty as charged."

      > Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
      > even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.

      > We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.

      Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will
      be welcome. :)

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      In programming, do, or undo. There is always try. --Yoda
    • George Dinwiddie
      ... The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that support your prejudice? If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 4 6:20 AM
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        On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
        > And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
        > processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
        > Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.

        The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
        support your prejudice?

        If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
        offensive.

        - George

        --
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
        Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
        Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      • ronjeffriesacm@gmail.com
        Hi George, Please see my [MOD] posting and offer your advice. Thanks, R
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 4 6:24 AM
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          Hi George,
          Please see my [MOD] posting and offer your advice.
          Thanks,
          R

          On Mar 4, 2011, at 9:20 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

          > On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
          >> And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
          >> processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
          >> Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
          >
          > The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
          > support your prejudice?
          >
          > If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
          > offensive.
          >
          > - George
          >
          > --
          > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
          > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
          > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
          > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Keith Ray
          I m already filtering out messages from one person, and now I ll start filtering out messages in reply to that person. In effect, few of the last week s worth
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 4 8:11 AM
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            I'm already filtering out messages from one person, and now I'll start
            filtering out messages in reply to that person. In effect, few of the last
            week's worth of postings will be seen by me.

            On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 6:20 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...>wrote:

            > On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
            > > And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
            > > processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
            > > Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
            >
            > The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
            > support your prejudice?
            >
            > If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
            > offensive.
            >
            > - George
            >
            > --
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
            > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
            > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            --
            C. Keith Ray
            Web: http://industriallogic.com
            Twitter: @CKeithRay, @IndustrialLogic

            Amplify Your Agility
            Coaching | Training | Assessment | eLearning


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Curtis Cooley
            ... perhaps even contribute to the disrespectful language you mentioned and I ll try to do better. I tend to try and get my point across smugly sometimes.
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 4 8:24 AM
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              On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you
              > wrote:
              >
              >
              > > I plead "Guilty as charged."
              >
              > > Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
              > > even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.
              >
              > > We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.
              >
              > Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will
              > be welcome. :)
              >
              >
              > I see and appreciate your frustration, as I get frustrated as well. I
              perhaps even contribute to the "disrespectful language" you mentioned and
              I'll try to do better. I tend to try and get my point across smugly
              sometimes. It's a fault that goes way back.

              I do, however, often glean tidbits of information about agile and XP even
              when these threads go sideways. The signal to noise ratio is really high,
              but there is still good info in there sometimes.

              Perhaps, as a moderator, or perhaps any of us, one can, when we see threads
              going way off topic, simply reply and ask, "what does this topic have to do
              with XP?" Perhaps a gentle nudge will move things back on topic.

              I remember a wise man once told me how to handle employees who were
              misbehaving and holding up the team. He proposed a three step process:

              1. Take him aside and show him how is actions negatively affected the team
              2. Take him aside and explain that if he doesn't change, there will be
              consequences and tell him what they are
              3. Exercise the consequences

              For some reason I think that wise man was you, Ron :)
              --
              Curtis Cooley
              curtis.cooley@...
              home:http://curtiscooley.com
              blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
              ===============
              Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
              must be without one, be without the strategy.
              -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ron Jeffries
              Hello, Curtis. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 11:24:17 AM, you ... You may have heard it from me. The idea belongs to Kent Beck. Good reminder though. :) Ron
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 4 9:22 AM
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                Hello, Curtis. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 11:24:17 AM, you
                wrote:

                > I remember a wise man once told me how to handle employees who were
                > misbehaving and holding up the team. He proposed a three step process:

                > 1. Take him aside and show him how is actions negatively affected the team
                > 2. Take him aside and explain that if he doesn't change, there will be
                > consequences and tell him what they are
                > 3. Exercise the consequences

                > For some reason I think that wise man was you, Ron :)

                You may have heard it from me. The idea belongs to Kent Beck.
                Good reminder though. :)

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Perfect is the enemy of The Good.
                But don't forget, so is The Half-Assed. -- J P Barlow
              • Rick Mugridge
                I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe. But when there s no longer
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 4 3:31 PM
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                  I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often
                  learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe.

                  But when there's no longer any hope of a real, exploratory, learning
                  dialog, I move on (or delete email without reading it).

                  Cheers, Rick

                  On 4/03/2011 10:04 p.m., ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
                  > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
                  > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
                  >
                  > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
                  > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                  >
                  > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  >
                  > R
                  >
                  > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
                  > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
                  > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
                  > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                  > >
                  > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
                  > another costly misdirection.
                  > >
                  > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                  > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
                  > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
                  > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
                  > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
                  > doing wrong.
                  > >
                  > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
                  > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
                  > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
                  > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
                  > >
                  > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
                  > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> ---
                  > >>
                  > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
                  > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
                  > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
                  > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
                  > over-emphasizing "unification."
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                  > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
                  > >
                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                  > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
                  > >
                  > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Curtis Cooley
                  ... is very low between the business people and the technical people. It s an old school place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need to
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 4 3:40 PM
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                    On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 2:08 AM, JeffGrigg <jeffreytoddgrigg@...>wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > "Uncle Bob" posted a nice short (3 minute) video on the origin of The Agile
                    > Manifesto, how we split, and where we should go from here:
                    > http://cleancoder.posterous.com/stub6-restoring-the-trust
                    >
                    > This is nice and very appropriate at my current place of employ. The trust
                    is very low between the business people and the technical people. It's an
                    "old school" place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need
                    to restore that trust, and re-unification is the most likely approach.

                    I'm already discreetly introducing Kanban and value stream mapping to the
                    PM's that will listen. My last value stream mapping session, one PM said
                    this was the most useful analysis he's ever seen at this company. GRIN! We
                    may just get a little agile movement going and be able to show how business
                    people and technical people can work side by side and IT is not just a cost
                    center.

                    What does this have to do with XP? Well, I'm also trying to gather up the
                    technical people that will listen and start an XP movement as well. The hope
                    is to not only meet in the middle, but also introduce the XP practices the
                    technical people will need to learn if any agile approach is going to work.

                    It's better than sitting head down in a cube and coding all day.

                    --
                    Curtis Cooley
                    curtis.cooley@...
                    home:http://curtiscooley.com
                    blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
                    ===============
                    Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
                    must be without one, be without the strategy.
                    -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tim Ottinger
                    ... How about being less gooder? Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else you d go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 4 5:59 PM
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                      > Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will

                      > be welcome. :)

                      How about being less gooder?

                      Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else
                      you'd go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza and skee ball from Morimoto's
                      sushi restaurant, he should be directed to Chuck E's. Otherwise, he's ruining
                      everyone's fine sushi dinner. Likewise, if he comes and complains every night
                      because there's rice in the sushi, he's not a critic but a crank. Sushi has
                      rice. That's what makes it sushi. Eat it or go to Chuck E's.

                      I feel like I sat down to a $150.00 tasting menu, and my neighbor is complaining
                      about the rice and ordering pizza and yelling at the waiters for not having
                      skeeball. I'm not enjoying my meal. We've all had our say, and it's just
                      circling back to the same-old same-old. Warnings have been issued. Next time,
                      ban.

                      Tim
                    • Charlie Poole
                      Hi Ron, The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I d like to feel that we can
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 4 8:51 PM
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                        Hi Ron,

                        The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it
                        in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I'd like to feel that we
                        can
                        have a conversation around that without every thread being hijacked to
                        argue for the peculiar re-definition of Agile that Marvin advocates.

                        Of course, sometimes a thread just grows off in a different direction
                        from where it started. But when it happens repeatedly, and each thread
                        is taken in the same direction by the same person, I have to think that
                        there is an intention to offend.

                        Jeff's posting of Bob's video could have led to an interesting discussion
                        well within the purpose of this group. It simply got hijacked. I made a
                        post a while back that suffered the same fate.

                        I suggest that you add systematic hijacking of threads to the list of
                        things for which someone may be moderated or banned. Then give
                        one or two warnings after which action should be taken.

                        IMO, it's OK if Marvin wants to make posts about his views of where
                        agile should go. So long as the subjects are clearly stated, anyone
                        who is not interested can ignore them. It's when these views are
                        repeatedly injected into other threads that I get annoyed.

                        Charlie

                        On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:04 AM, <ronjeffriesacm@...> wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to
                        > what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less
                        > respectful of people both absent and present.
                        >
                        > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not
                        > have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                        >
                        > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        >
                        > R
                        >
                        >
                        > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT
                        > leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were
                        > curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                        > >
                        > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another
                        > costly misdirection.
                        > >
                        > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                        > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a
                        > strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that
                        > failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope
                        > included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                        > >
                        > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA,
                        > that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right ---
                        > then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are
                        > smarter than they are?
                        > >
                        > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg"
                        > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> ---
                        > >>
                        > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for
                        > everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on
                        > interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of
                        > the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing
                        > "unification."
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > >
                        > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                        > >
                        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                        > >
                        > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John Roth
                        Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling. This is usually such a
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 5 2:03 AM
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                          Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited
                          post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling.

                          This is usually such a pleasant group that people may have forgotten the
                          first law of dealing with a troll: don't reply.

                          John Roth

                          On 3/4/11 2:04 AM, ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
                          >
                          > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
                          > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
                          > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
                          >
                          > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
                          > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                          >
                          > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > R
                          >
                          > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
                          > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
                          >
                          > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
                          > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
                          > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                          > >
                          > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
                          > another costly misdirection.
                          > >
                          > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                          > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
                          > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
                          > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
                          > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
                          > doing wrong.
                          > >
                          > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
                          > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
                          > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
                          > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
                          > >
                          > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
                          > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> ---
                          > >>
                          > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
                          > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
                          > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
                          > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
                          > over-emphasizing "unification."
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                          > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
                          > >
                          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                          > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
                          > >
                          > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >



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