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[MOD] Re: [XP] Re: Uncle Bob's "Restoring The Trust" video

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  • JeffGrigg
    I plead Guilty as charged. Even this thread has just gone right off the rails, even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior. We just keep
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 4 2:33 AM
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      I plead "Guilty as charged."

      Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
      even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.

      We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.


      --- ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
      >
      > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
      >
      > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
      >
      > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > R
    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you ... Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will be welcome. :) Ron
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 4 5:18 AM
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        Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you
        wrote:

        > I plead "Guilty as charged."

        > Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
        > even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.

        > We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.

        Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will
        be welcome. :)

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        In programming, do, or undo. There is always try. --Yoda
      • George Dinwiddie
        ... The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that support your prejudice? If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 4 6:20 AM
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          On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
          > And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
          > processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
          > Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.

          The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
          support your prejudice?

          If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
          offensive.

          - George

          --
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
          Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
          Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        • ronjeffriesacm@gmail.com
          Hi George, Please see my [MOD] posting and offer your advice. Thanks, R
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 4 6:24 AM
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            Hi George,
            Please see my [MOD] posting and offer your advice.
            Thanks,
            R

            On Mar 4, 2011, at 9:20 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

            > On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
            >> And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
            >> processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
            >> Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
            >
            > The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
            > support your prejudice?
            >
            > If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
            > offensive.
            >
            > - George
            >
            > --
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
            > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
            > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Keith Ray
            I m already filtering out messages from one person, and now I ll start filtering out messages in reply to that person. In effect, few of the last week s worth
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 4 8:11 AM
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              I'm already filtering out messages from one person, and now I'll start
              filtering out messages in reply to that person. In effect, few of the last
              week's worth of postings will be seen by me.

              On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 6:20 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...>wrote:

              > On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
              > > And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
              > > processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
              > > Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
              >
              > The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
              > support your prejudice?
              >
              > If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
              > offensive.
              >
              > - George
              >
              > --
              > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
              > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
              > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
              > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
              >
              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              --
              --
              C. Keith Ray
              Web: http://industriallogic.com
              Twitter: @CKeithRay, @IndustrialLogic

              Amplify Your Agility
              Coaching | Training | Assessment | eLearning


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Curtis Cooley
              ... perhaps even contribute to the disrespectful language you mentioned and I ll try to do better. I tend to try and get my point across smugly sometimes.
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 4 8:24 AM
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                On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you
                > wrote:
                >
                >
                > > I plead "Guilty as charged."
                >
                > > Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
                > > even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.
                >
                > > We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.
                >
                > Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will
                > be welcome. :)
                >
                >
                > I see and appreciate your frustration, as I get frustrated as well. I
                perhaps even contribute to the "disrespectful language" you mentioned and
                I'll try to do better. I tend to try and get my point across smugly
                sometimes. It's a fault that goes way back.

                I do, however, often glean tidbits of information about agile and XP even
                when these threads go sideways. The signal to noise ratio is really high,
                but there is still good info in there sometimes.

                Perhaps, as a moderator, or perhaps any of us, one can, when we see threads
                going way off topic, simply reply and ask, "what does this topic have to do
                with XP?" Perhaps a gentle nudge will move things back on topic.

                I remember a wise man once told me how to handle employees who were
                misbehaving and holding up the team. He proposed a three step process:

                1. Take him aside and show him how is actions negatively affected the team
                2. Take him aside and explain that if he doesn't change, there will be
                consequences and tell him what they are
                3. Exercise the consequences

                For some reason I think that wise man was you, Ron :)
                --
                Curtis Cooley
                curtis.cooley@...
                home:http://curtiscooley.com
                blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
                ===============
                Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
                must be without one, be without the strategy.
                -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ron Jeffries
                Hello, Curtis. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 11:24:17 AM, you ... You may have heard it from me. The idea belongs to Kent Beck. Good reminder though. :) Ron
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 4 9:22 AM
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                  Hello, Curtis. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 11:24:17 AM, you
                  wrote:

                  > I remember a wise man once told me how to handle employees who were
                  > misbehaving and holding up the team. He proposed a three step process:

                  > 1. Take him aside and show him how is actions negatively affected the team
                  > 2. Take him aside and explain that if he doesn't change, there will be
                  > consequences and tell him what they are
                  > 3. Exercise the consequences

                  > For some reason I think that wise man was you, Ron :)

                  You may have heard it from me. The idea belongs to Kent Beck.
                  Good reminder though. :)

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  Perfect is the enemy of The Good.
                  But don't forget, so is The Half-Assed. -- J P Barlow
                • Rick Mugridge
                  I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe. But when there s no longer
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 4 3:31 PM
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                    I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often
                    learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe.

                    But when there's no longer any hope of a real, exploratory, learning
                    dialog, I move on (or delete email without reading it).

                    Cheers, Rick

                    On 4/03/2011 10:04 p.m., ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
                    > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
                    > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
                    >
                    > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
                    > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                    >
                    > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    > R
                    >
                    > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
                    > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
                    >
                    > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
                    > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
                    > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                    > >
                    > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
                    > another costly misdirection.
                    > >
                    > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                    > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
                    > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
                    > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
                    > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
                    > doing wrong.
                    > >
                    > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
                    > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
                    > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
                    > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
                    > >
                    > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
                    > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> ---
                    > >>
                    > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
                    > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
                    > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
                    > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
                    > over-emphasizing "unification."
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                    > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
                    > >
                    > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                    > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
                    > >
                    > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Curtis Cooley
                    ... is very low between the business people and the technical people. It s an old school place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need to
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 4 3:40 PM
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                      On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 2:08 AM, JeffGrigg <jeffreytoddgrigg@...>wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > "Uncle Bob" posted a nice short (3 minute) video on the origin of The Agile
                      > Manifesto, how we split, and where we should go from here:
                      > http://cleancoder.posterous.com/stub6-restoring-the-trust
                      >
                      > This is nice and very appropriate at my current place of employ. The trust
                      is very low between the business people and the technical people. It's an
                      "old school" place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need
                      to restore that trust, and re-unification is the most likely approach.

                      I'm already discreetly introducing Kanban and value stream mapping to the
                      PM's that will listen. My last value stream mapping session, one PM said
                      this was the most useful analysis he's ever seen at this company. GRIN! We
                      may just get a little agile movement going and be able to show how business
                      people and technical people can work side by side and IT is not just a cost
                      center.

                      What does this have to do with XP? Well, I'm also trying to gather up the
                      technical people that will listen and start an XP movement as well. The hope
                      is to not only meet in the middle, but also introduce the XP practices the
                      technical people will need to learn if any agile approach is going to work.

                      It's better than sitting head down in a cube and coding all day.

                      --
                      Curtis Cooley
                      curtis.cooley@...
                      home:http://curtiscooley.com
                      blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
                      ===============
                      Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
                      must be without one, be without the strategy.
                      -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Tim Ottinger
                      ... How about being less gooder? Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else you d go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 4 5:59 PM
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                        > Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will

                        > be welcome. :)

                        How about being less gooder?

                        Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else
                        you'd go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza and skee ball from Morimoto's
                        sushi restaurant, he should be directed to Chuck E's. Otherwise, he's ruining
                        everyone's fine sushi dinner. Likewise, if he comes and complains every night
                        because there's rice in the sushi, he's not a critic but a crank. Sushi has
                        rice. That's what makes it sushi. Eat it or go to Chuck E's.

                        I feel like I sat down to a $150.00 tasting menu, and my neighbor is complaining
                        about the rice and ordering pizza and yelling at the waiters for not having
                        skeeball. I'm not enjoying my meal. We've all had our say, and it's just
                        circling back to the same-old same-old. Warnings have been issued. Next time,
                        ban.

                        Tim
                      • Charlie Poole
                        Hi Ron, The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I d like to feel that we can
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 4 8:51 PM
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                          Hi Ron,

                          The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it
                          in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I'd like to feel that we
                          can
                          have a conversation around that without every thread being hijacked to
                          argue for the peculiar re-definition of Agile that Marvin advocates.

                          Of course, sometimes a thread just grows off in a different direction
                          from where it started. But when it happens repeatedly, and each thread
                          is taken in the same direction by the same person, I have to think that
                          there is an intention to offend.

                          Jeff's posting of Bob's video could have led to an interesting discussion
                          well within the purpose of this group. It simply got hijacked. I made a
                          post a while back that suffered the same fate.

                          I suggest that you add systematic hijacking of threads to the list of
                          things for which someone may be moderated or banned. Then give
                          one or two warnings after which action should be taken.

                          IMO, it's OK if Marvin wants to make posts about his views of where
                          agile should go. So long as the subjects are clearly stated, anyone
                          who is not interested can ignore them. It's when these views are
                          repeatedly injected into other threads that I get annoyed.

                          Charlie

                          On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:04 AM, <ronjeffriesacm@...> wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to
                          > what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less
                          > respectful of people both absent and present.
                          >
                          > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not
                          > have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                          >
                          > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > R
                          >
                          >
                          > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT
                          > leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were
                          > curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                          > >
                          > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another
                          > costly misdirection.
                          > >
                          > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                          > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a
                          > strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that
                          > failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope
                          > included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                          > >
                          > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA,
                          > that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right ---
                          > then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are
                          > smarter than they are?
                          > >
                          > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg"
                          > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> ---
                          > >>
                          > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for
                          > everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on
                          > interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of
                          > the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing
                          > "unification."
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > >
                          > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                          > >
                          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                          > >
                          > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • John Roth
                          Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling. This is usually such a
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 5 2:03 AM
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                            Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited
                            post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling.

                            This is usually such a pleasant group that people may have forgotten the
                            first law of dealing with a troll: don't reply.

                            John Roth

                            On 3/4/11 2:04 AM, ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
                            > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
                            > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
                            >
                            > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
                            > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                            >
                            > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            >
                            > R
                            >
                            > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
                            > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
                            >
                            > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
                            > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
                            > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                            > >
                            > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
                            > another costly misdirection.
                            > >
                            > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                            > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
                            > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
                            > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
                            > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
                            > doing wrong.
                            > >
                            > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
                            > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
                            > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
                            > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
                            > >
                            > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
                            > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >> ---
                            > >>
                            > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
                            > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
                            > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
                            > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
                            > over-emphasizing "unification."
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                            > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
                            > >
                            > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                            > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
                            > >
                            > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >



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