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Re: [XP] Re: Uncle Bob's "Restoring The Trust" video

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  • Ron Jeffries
    Hello, MarvinToll.com. On Wednesday, March 2, 2011, at 8:59:26 ... Are there many such people out there? I ve not noticed many folks who are pushing this
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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      Hello, MarvinToll.com. On Wednesday, March 2, 2011, at 8:59:26
      PM, you wrote:

      > Position B - Separate Movements. That those desiring separate
      > movements represent a maturation of perspective; with the
      > underlying belief that a focus on deliverying working software is
      > the best way to "restore the trust between business and technology".

      Are there many such people out there? I've not noticed many folks
      who are pushing this view.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      The opinions expressed here /are/ necessarily those of XProgramming.com.
      But I might change my mind.
    • Curtis Cooley
      ... I ve noticed one. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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        On Mar 3, 2011 4:34 AM, "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Hello, MarvinToll.com. On Wednesday, March 2, 2011, at 8:59:26
        >
        > PM, you wrote:
        >
        > > Position B - Separate Movements. That those desiring separate
        > > movements represent a maturation of perspective; with the
        > > underlying belief that a focus on deliverying working software is
        > > the best way to "restore the trust between business and technology".
        >
        > Are there many such people out there? I've not noticed many folks
        > who are pushing this view.
        >

        I've noticed one.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ron Jeffries
        Hello, Curtis. On Thursday, March 3, 2011, at 10:07:21 AM, you ... Yes? Who s that, please? Link to their work? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Those who
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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          Hello, Curtis. On Thursday, March 3, 2011, at 10:07:21 AM, you
          wrote:

          > I've noticed one.

          Yes? Who's that, please? Link to their work?

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Those who attain to any excellence commonly spend life in some single
          pursuit, for excellence is not often gained upon easier terms.
          -- Samuel Johnson
        • Curtis Cooley
          ... for A and positive words and phrases for B, I assumed Marvin was in group B. -- Curtis Cooley curtis.cooley@gmail.com home:http://curtiscooley.com
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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            On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > Hello, Curtis. On Thursday, March 3, 2011, at 10:07:21 AM, you
            > wrote:
            >
            > > I've noticed one.
            >
            > Yes? Who's that, please? Link to their work?
            >
            > The way Marvin worded the alternatives, mostly negative words and phrases
            for A and positive words and phrases for B, I assumed Marvin was in group B.

            --
            Curtis Cooley
            curtis.cooley@...
            home:http://curtiscooley.com
            blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
            ===============
            Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
            must be without one, be without the strategy.
            -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • JeffGrigg
            ... Sure; who else would think that separating groups of people is the best way to improve trust between those groups? ;- ... Personally, while I see value
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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              >> --- Curtis wrote:
              >>> I've noticed one.

              > --- Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
              >> Yes? Who's that, please? Link to their work?

              --- Curtis Cooley <curtis.cooley@...> wrote:
              > The way Marvin worded the alternatives, mostly negative words
              > and phrases for A and positive words and phrases for B, I
              > assumed Marvin was in group B.

              Sure; who else would think that separating groups of people is the best way to improve trust between those groups? ;->

              ---

              Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing "unification."
            • MarvinToll.com
              I appreciated Uncle Bob s reminder. In 2001 CEO s were still telling IT leaders to get lost ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were curtailed
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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                I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.

                And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another costly misdirection.

                It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.

                If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are smarter than they are?

                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                >
                > ---
                >
                > Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing "unification."
                >
              • Steven Gordon
                Your examples all point out that technologies are not sufficient to solve business problems. The agile leaders are not the same people as the IT leaders you
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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                  Your examples all point out that technologies are not sufficient to solve
                  business problems. The agile leaders are not the same people as the "IT
                  leaders" you lambast in that they realize that people are the success factor
                  not technology.

                  Agile is about facilitating people, not about the latest and greatest
                  technology. In the case of a business with a 19th century management
                  approach, facilitating people does require social reengineering of the
                  organization and its culture, not just paying lip service to the agile
                  principles.

                  Nobody in the agile movement is telling you that you cannot take off in your
                  own direction. But, why do we have to sanction your particular direction
                  when we believe it is not Agile? Go forth and prove us wrong, not with
                  words or misinterpeting other's words to fit your agenda or drafting off the
                  inertia of slowly dying mega-corporations, but with some real demonstrable
                  success.

                  SteveG

                  On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 9:07 PM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT
                  > leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were
                  > curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                  >
                  > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another
                  > costly misdirection.
                  >
                  > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                  > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a
                  > strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that
                  > failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope
                  > included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                  >
                  > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA,
                  > that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right ---
                  > then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are
                  > smarter than they are?
                  >
                  > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > ---
                  > >
                  > > Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for
                  > everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on
                  > interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of
                  > the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing
                  > "unification."
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Goodsen
                  IMHO, it s going way off topic... ... -- John Goodsen RADSoft / Better Software Faster jgoodsen@radsoft.com Lean/Kanban/XP/Scrum
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                    IMHO, it's going way off topic...

                    On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 2:04 AM, <ronjeffriesacm@...> wrote:

                    > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to
                    > what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less
                    > respectful of people both absent and present.
                    >
                    > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not
                    > have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                    >
                    > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    > R
                    >
                    > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT
                    > leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were
                    > curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                    > >
                    > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another
                    > costly misdirection.
                    > >
                    > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                    > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a
                    > strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that
                    > failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope
                    > included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                    > >
                    > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA,
                    > that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right ---
                    > then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are
                    > smarter than they are?
                    > >
                    > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg"
                    > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> ---
                    > >>
                    > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for
                    > everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on
                    > interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of
                    > the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing
                    > "unification."
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                    > >
                    > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                    > >
                    > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    John Goodsen RADSoft / Better Software Faster
                    jgoodsen@... Lean/Kanban/XP/Scrum Coaching and Training
                    http://www.radsoft.com Enterprise Ruby, Java and Scala Solutions


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ronjeffriesacm@gmail.com
                    Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less respectful of
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                      Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less respectful of people both absent and present.

                      At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not have a record of good decisions when irritated.

                      Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.

                      Thanks,

                      R

                      On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:

                      > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                      >
                      > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another costly misdirection.
                      >
                      > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                      >
                      > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are smarter than they are?
                      >
                      > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> ---
                      >>
                      >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing "unification."
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • JeffGrigg
                      I plead Guilty as charged. Even this thread has just gone right off the rails, even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior. We just keep
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                        I plead "Guilty as charged."

                        Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
                        even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.

                        We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.


                        --- ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
                        >
                        > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                        >
                        > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        >
                        > R
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you ... Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will be welcome. :) Ron
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                          Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you
                          wrote:

                          > I plead "Guilty as charged."

                          > Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
                          > even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.

                          > We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.

                          Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will
                          be welcome. :)

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          In programming, do, or undo. There is always try. --Yoda
                        • George Dinwiddie
                          ... The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that support your prejudice? If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                            On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
                            > And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
                            > processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
                            > Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.

                            The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
                            support your prejudice?

                            If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
                            offensive.

                            - George

                            --
                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                            Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                            Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                          • ronjeffriesacm@gmail.com
                            Hi George, Please see my [MOD] posting and offer your advice. Thanks, R
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                              Hi George,
                              Please see my [MOD] posting and offer your advice.
                              Thanks,
                              R

                              On Mar 4, 2011, at 9:20 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                              > On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
                              >> And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
                              >> processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
                              >> Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                              >
                              > The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
                              > support your prejudice?
                              >
                              > If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
                              > offensive.
                              >
                              > - George
                              >
                              > --
                              > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                              > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                              > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                              > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                              >
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                              >
                              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Keith Ray
                              I m already filtering out messages from one person, and now I ll start filtering out messages in reply to that person. In effect, few of the last week s worth
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                I'm already filtering out messages from one person, and now I'll start
                                filtering out messages in reply to that person. In effect, few of the last
                                week's worth of postings will be seen by me.

                                On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 6:20 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...>wrote:

                                > On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
                                > > And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
                                > > processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
                                > > Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                                >
                                > The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
                                > support your prejudice?
                                >
                                > If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
                                > offensive.
                                >
                                > - George
                                >
                                > --
                                > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                                > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                                > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                >
                                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                >
                                > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                --
                                --
                                C. Keith Ray
                                Web: http://industriallogic.com
                                Twitter: @CKeithRay, @IndustrialLogic

                                Amplify Your Agility
                                Coaching | Training | Assessment | eLearning


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Curtis Cooley
                                ... perhaps even contribute to the disrespectful language you mentioned and I ll try to do better. I tend to try and get my point across smugly sometimes.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                  On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > I plead "Guilty as charged."
                                  >
                                  > > Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
                                  > > even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.
                                  >
                                  > > We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.
                                  >
                                  > Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will
                                  > be welcome. :)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I see and appreciate your frustration, as I get frustrated as well. I
                                  perhaps even contribute to the "disrespectful language" you mentioned and
                                  I'll try to do better. I tend to try and get my point across smugly
                                  sometimes. It's a fault that goes way back.

                                  I do, however, often glean tidbits of information about agile and XP even
                                  when these threads go sideways. The signal to noise ratio is really high,
                                  but there is still good info in there sometimes.

                                  Perhaps, as a moderator, or perhaps any of us, one can, when we see threads
                                  going way off topic, simply reply and ask, "what does this topic have to do
                                  with XP?" Perhaps a gentle nudge will move things back on topic.

                                  I remember a wise man once told me how to handle employees who were
                                  misbehaving and holding up the team. He proposed a three step process:

                                  1. Take him aside and show him how is actions negatively affected the team
                                  2. Take him aside and explain that if he doesn't change, there will be
                                  consequences and tell him what they are
                                  3. Exercise the consequences

                                  For some reason I think that wise man was you, Ron :)
                                  --
                                  Curtis Cooley
                                  curtis.cooley@...
                                  home:http://curtiscooley.com
                                  blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
                                  ===============
                                  Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
                                  must be without one, be without the strategy.
                                  -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Ron Jeffries
                                  Hello, Curtis. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 11:24:17 AM, you ... You may have heard it from me. The idea belongs to Kent Beck. Good reminder though. :) Ron
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                    Hello, Curtis. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 11:24:17 AM, you
                                    wrote:

                                    > I remember a wise man once told me how to handle employees who were
                                    > misbehaving and holding up the team. He proposed a three step process:

                                    > 1. Take him aside and show him how is actions negatively affected the team
                                    > 2. Take him aside and explain that if he doesn't change, there will be
                                    > consequences and tell him what they are
                                    > 3. Exercise the consequences

                                    > For some reason I think that wise man was you, Ron :)

                                    You may have heard it from me. The idea belongs to Kent Beck.
                                    Good reminder though. :)

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    Perfect is the enemy of The Good.
                                    But don't forget, so is The Half-Assed. -- J P Barlow
                                  • Rick Mugridge
                                    I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe. But when there s no longer
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                      I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often
                                      learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe.

                                      But when there's no longer any hope of a real, exploratory, learning
                                      dialog, I move on (or delete email without reading it).

                                      Cheers, Rick

                                      On 4/03/2011 10:04 p.m., ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
                                      > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
                                      > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
                                      >
                                      > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
                                      > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                                      >
                                      > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks,
                                      >
                                      > R
                                      >
                                      > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
                                      > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
                                      > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
                                      > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                                      > >
                                      > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
                                      > another costly misdirection.
                                      > >
                                      > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                                      > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
                                      > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
                                      > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
                                      > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
                                      > doing wrong.
                                      > >
                                      > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
                                      > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
                                      > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
                                      > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
                                      > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                                      > >>
                                      > >> ---
                                      > >>
                                      > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
                                      > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
                                      > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
                                      > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
                                      > over-emphasizing "unification."
                                      > >>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                      > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
                                      > >
                                      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                      > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                      > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
                                      > >
                                      > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Curtis Cooley
                                      ... is very low between the business people and the technical people. It s an old school place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need to
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                        On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 2:08 AM, JeffGrigg <jeffreytoddgrigg@...>wrote:

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > "Uncle Bob" posted a nice short (3 minute) video on the origin of The Agile
                                        > Manifesto, how we split, and where we should go from here:
                                        > http://cleancoder.posterous.com/stub6-restoring-the-trust
                                        >
                                        > This is nice and very appropriate at my current place of employ. The trust
                                        is very low between the business people and the technical people. It's an
                                        "old school" place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need
                                        to restore that trust, and re-unification is the most likely approach.

                                        I'm already discreetly introducing Kanban and value stream mapping to the
                                        PM's that will listen. My last value stream mapping session, one PM said
                                        this was the most useful analysis he's ever seen at this company. GRIN! We
                                        may just get a little agile movement going and be able to show how business
                                        people and technical people can work side by side and IT is not just a cost
                                        center.

                                        What does this have to do with XP? Well, I'm also trying to gather up the
                                        technical people that will listen and start an XP movement as well. The hope
                                        is to not only meet in the middle, but also introduce the XP practices the
                                        technical people will need to learn if any agile approach is going to work.

                                        It's better than sitting head down in a cube and coding all day.

                                        --
                                        Curtis Cooley
                                        curtis.cooley@...
                                        home:http://curtiscooley.com
                                        blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
                                        ===============
                                        Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
                                        must be without one, be without the strategy.
                                        -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Tim Ottinger
                                        ... How about being less gooder? Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else you d go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                          > Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will

                                          > be welcome. :)

                                          How about being less gooder?

                                          Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else
                                          you'd go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza and skee ball from Morimoto's
                                          sushi restaurant, he should be directed to Chuck E's. Otherwise, he's ruining
                                          everyone's fine sushi dinner. Likewise, if he comes and complains every night
                                          because there's rice in the sushi, he's not a critic but a crank. Sushi has
                                          rice. That's what makes it sushi. Eat it or go to Chuck E's.

                                          I feel like I sat down to a $150.00 tasting menu, and my neighbor is complaining
                                          about the rice and ordering pizza and yelling at the waiters for not having
                                          skeeball. I'm not enjoying my meal. We've all had our say, and it's just
                                          circling back to the same-old same-old. Warnings have been issued. Next time,
                                          ban.

                                          Tim
                                        • Charlie Poole
                                          Hi Ron, The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I d like to feel that we can
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                            Hi Ron,

                                            The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it
                                            in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I'd like to feel that we
                                            can
                                            have a conversation around that without every thread being hijacked to
                                            argue for the peculiar re-definition of Agile that Marvin advocates.

                                            Of course, sometimes a thread just grows off in a different direction
                                            from where it started. But when it happens repeatedly, and each thread
                                            is taken in the same direction by the same person, I have to think that
                                            there is an intention to offend.

                                            Jeff's posting of Bob's video could have led to an interesting discussion
                                            well within the purpose of this group. It simply got hijacked. I made a
                                            post a while back that suffered the same fate.

                                            I suggest that you add systematic hijacking of threads to the list of
                                            things for which someone may be moderated or banned. Then give
                                            one or two warnings after which action should be taken.

                                            IMO, it's OK if Marvin wants to make posts about his views of where
                                            agile should go. So long as the subjects are clearly stated, anyone
                                            who is not interested can ignore them. It's when these views are
                                            repeatedly injected into other threads that I get annoyed.

                                            Charlie

                                            On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:04 AM, <ronjeffriesacm@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to
                                            > what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less
                                            > respectful of people both absent and present.
                                            >
                                            > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not
                                            > have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                                            >
                                            > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks,
                                            >
                                            > R
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT
                                            > leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were
                                            > curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                                            > >
                                            > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another
                                            > costly misdirection.
                                            > >
                                            > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                                            > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a
                                            > strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that
                                            > failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope
                                            > included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                                            > >
                                            > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA,
                                            > that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right ---
                                            > then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are
                                            > smarter than they are?
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg"
                                            > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                                            > >>
                                            > >> ---
                                            > >>
                                            > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for
                                            > everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on
                                            > interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of
                                            > the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing
                                            > "unification."
                                            > >>
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                            > >
                                            > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                            > >
                                            > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • John Roth
                                            Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling. This is usually such a
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 5, 2011
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                                              Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited
                                              post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling.

                                              This is usually such a pleasant group that people may have forgotten the
                                              first law of dealing with a troll: don't reply.

                                              John Roth

                                              On 3/4/11 2:04 AM, ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
                                              > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
                                              > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
                                              >
                                              > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
                                              > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                                              >
                                              > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                                              >
                                              > Thanks,
                                              >
                                              > R
                                              >
                                              > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
                                              > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
                                              > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
                                              > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                                              > >
                                              > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
                                              > another costly misdirection.
                                              > >
                                              > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                                              > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
                                              > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
                                              > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
                                              > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
                                              > doing wrong.
                                              > >
                                              > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
                                              > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
                                              > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
                                              > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                              > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
                                              > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                                              > >>
                                              > >> ---
                                              > >>
                                              > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
                                              > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
                                              > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
                                              > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
                                              > over-emphasizing "unification."
                                              > >>
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ------------------------------------
                                              > >
                                              > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                              > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
                                              > >
                                              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                              > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
                                              > >
                                              > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >



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