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Uncle Bob's "Restoring The Trust" video

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  • JeffGrigg
    Uncle Bob posted a nice short (3 minute) video on the origin of The Agile Manifesto, how we split, and where we should go from here:
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 2, 2011
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      "Uncle Bob" posted a nice short (3 minute) video on the origin of The Agile Manifesto, how we split, and where we should go from here:
      http://cleancoder.posterous.com/stub6-restoring-the-trust
    • MarvinToll.com
      hmmm... I d characterize the two positions as: Position A - Reunification. Combining technical concerns about working software with people/process stuff was
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 2, 2011
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        hmmm... I'd characterize the two positions as:

        Position A - Reunification. Combining technical concerns about working software with "people/process stuff" was a good idea for "restoring the trust between business and technology" and therefore "reunification" is good.

        Position B - Separate Movements. That those desiring separate movements represent a maturation of perspective; with the underlying belief that a focus on deliverying working software is the best way to "restore the trust between business and technology".

        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
        >
        > "Uncle Bob" posted a nice short (3 minute) video on the origin of The Agile Manifesto, how we split, and where we should go from here:
        > http://cleancoder.posterous.com/stub6-restoring-the-trust
        >
        2
      • Ron Jeffries
        Hello, MarvinToll.com. On Wednesday, March 2, 2011, at 8:59:26 ... Are there many such people out there? I ve not noticed many folks who are pushing this
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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          Hello, MarvinToll.com. On Wednesday, March 2, 2011, at 8:59:26
          PM, you wrote:

          > Position B - Separate Movements. That those desiring separate
          > movements represent a maturation of perspective; with the
          > underlying belief that a focus on deliverying working software is
          > the best way to "restore the trust between business and technology".

          Are there many such people out there? I've not noticed many folks
          who are pushing this view.

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          The opinions expressed here /are/ necessarily those of XProgramming.com.
          But I might change my mind.
        • Curtis Cooley
          ... I ve noticed one. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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            On Mar 3, 2011 4:34 AM, "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello, MarvinToll.com. On Wednesday, March 2, 2011, at 8:59:26
            >
            > PM, you wrote:
            >
            > > Position B - Separate Movements. That those desiring separate
            > > movements represent a maturation of perspective; with the
            > > underlying belief that a focus on deliverying working software is
            > > the best way to "restore the trust between business and technology".
            >
            > Are there many such people out there? I've not noticed many folks
            > who are pushing this view.
            >

            I've noticed one.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ron Jeffries
            Hello, Curtis. On Thursday, March 3, 2011, at 10:07:21 AM, you ... Yes? Who s that, please? Link to their work? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Those who
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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              Hello, Curtis. On Thursday, March 3, 2011, at 10:07:21 AM, you
              wrote:

              > I've noticed one.

              Yes? Who's that, please? Link to their work?

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Those who attain to any excellence commonly spend life in some single
              pursuit, for excellence is not often gained upon easier terms.
              -- Samuel Johnson
            • Curtis Cooley
              ... for A and positive words and phrases for B, I assumed Marvin was in group B. -- Curtis Cooley curtis.cooley@gmail.com home:http://curtiscooley.com
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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                On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > Hello, Curtis. On Thursday, March 3, 2011, at 10:07:21 AM, you
                > wrote:
                >
                > > I've noticed one.
                >
                > Yes? Who's that, please? Link to their work?
                >
                > The way Marvin worded the alternatives, mostly negative words and phrases
                for A and positive words and phrases for B, I assumed Marvin was in group B.

                --
                Curtis Cooley
                curtis.cooley@...
                home:http://curtiscooley.com
                blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
                ===============
                Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
                must be without one, be without the strategy.
                -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • JeffGrigg
                ... Sure; who else would think that separating groups of people is the best way to improve trust between those groups? ;- ... Personally, while I see value
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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                  >> --- Curtis wrote:
                  >>> I've noticed one.

                  > --- Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                  >> Yes? Who's that, please? Link to their work?

                  --- Curtis Cooley <curtis.cooley@...> wrote:
                  > The way Marvin worded the alternatives, mostly negative words
                  > and phrases for A and positive words and phrases for B, I
                  > assumed Marvin was in group B.

                  Sure; who else would think that separating groups of people is the best way to improve trust between those groups? ;->

                  ---

                  Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing "unification."
                • MarvinToll.com
                  I appreciated Uncle Bob s reminder. In 2001 CEO s were still telling IT leaders to get lost ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were curtailed
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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                    I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.

                    And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another costly misdirection.

                    It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.

                    If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are smarter than they are?

                    --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > ---
                    >
                    > Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing "unification."
                    >
                  • Steven Gordon
                    Your examples all point out that technologies are not sufficient to solve business problems. The agile leaders are not the same people as the IT leaders you
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 3, 2011
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                      Your examples all point out that technologies are not sufficient to solve
                      business problems. The agile leaders are not the same people as the "IT
                      leaders" you lambast in that they realize that people are the success factor
                      not technology.

                      Agile is about facilitating people, not about the latest and greatest
                      technology. In the case of a business with a 19th century management
                      approach, facilitating people does require social reengineering of the
                      organization and its culture, not just paying lip service to the agile
                      principles.

                      Nobody in the agile movement is telling you that you cannot take off in your
                      own direction. But, why do we have to sanction your particular direction
                      when we believe it is not Agile? Go forth and prove us wrong, not with
                      words or misinterpeting other's words to fit your agenda or drafting off the
                      inertia of slowly dying mega-corporations, but with some real demonstrable
                      success.

                      SteveG

                      On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 9:07 PM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...>wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT
                      > leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were
                      > curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                      >
                      > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another
                      > costly misdirection.
                      >
                      > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                      > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a
                      > strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that
                      > failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope
                      > included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                      >
                      > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA,
                      > that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right ---
                      > then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are
                      > smarter than they are?
                      >
                      > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > ---
                      > >
                      > > Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for
                      > everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on
                      > interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of
                      > the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing
                      > "unification."
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John Goodsen
                      IMHO, it s going way off topic... ... -- John Goodsen RADSoft / Better Software Faster jgoodsen@radsoft.com Lean/Kanban/XP/Scrum
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                        IMHO, it's going way off topic...

                        On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 2:04 AM, <ronjeffriesacm@...> wrote:

                        > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to
                        > what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less
                        > respectful of people both absent and present.
                        >
                        > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not
                        > have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                        >
                        > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        >
                        > R
                        >
                        > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT
                        > leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were
                        > curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                        > >
                        > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another
                        > costly misdirection.
                        > >
                        > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                        > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a
                        > strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that
                        > failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope
                        > included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                        > >
                        > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA,
                        > that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right ---
                        > then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are
                        > smarter than they are?
                        > >
                        > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg"
                        > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> ---
                        > >>
                        > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for
                        > everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on
                        > interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of
                        > the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing
                        > "unification."
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                        > >
                        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                        > >
                        > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                        >
                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                        >
                        > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        --
                        John Goodsen RADSoft / Better Software Faster
                        jgoodsen@... Lean/Kanban/XP/Scrum Coaching and Training
                        http://www.radsoft.com Enterprise Ruby, Java and Scala Solutions


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • ronjeffriesacm@gmail.com
                        Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less respectful of
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                          Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less respectful of people both absent and present.

                          At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not have a record of good decisions when irritated.

                          Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.

                          Thanks,

                          R

                          On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:

                          > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                          >
                          > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another costly misdirection.
                          >
                          > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                          >
                          > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are smarter than they are?
                          >
                          > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> ---
                          >>
                          >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing "unification."
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                          >
                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                          >
                          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • JeffGrigg
                          I plead Guilty as charged. Even this thread has just gone right off the rails, even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior. We just keep
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                            I plead "Guilty as charged."

                            Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
                            even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.

                            We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.


                            --- ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
                            >
                            > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                            >
                            > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            >
                            > R
                          • Ron Jeffries
                            Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you ... Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will be welcome. :) Ron
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                              Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you
                              wrote:

                              > I plead "Guilty as charged."

                              > Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
                              > even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.

                              > We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.

                              Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will
                              be welcome. :)

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              In programming, do, or undo. There is always try. --Yoda
                            • George Dinwiddie
                              ... The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that support your prejudice? If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
                                > And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
                                > processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
                                > Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.

                                The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
                                support your prejudice?

                                If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
                                offensive.

                                - George

                                --
                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                                Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                                Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              • ronjeffriesacm@gmail.com
                                Hi George, Please see my [MOD] posting and offer your advice. Thanks, R
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                  Hi George,
                                  Please see my [MOD] posting and offer your advice.
                                  Thanks,
                                  R

                                  On Mar 4, 2011, at 9:20 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...> wrote:

                                  > On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
                                  >> And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
                                  >> processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
                                  >> Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                                  >
                                  > The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
                                  > support your prejudice?
                                  >
                                  > If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
                                  > offensive.
                                  >
                                  > - George
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                                  > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                                  > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                  > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                  >
                                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                  >
                                  > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Keith Ray
                                  I m already filtering out messages from one person, and now I ll start filtering out messages in reply to that person. In effect, few of the last week s worth
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                    I'm already filtering out messages from one person, and now I'll start
                                    filtering out messages in reply to that person. In effect, few of the last
                                    week's worth of postings will be seen by me.

                                    On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 6:20 AM, George Dinwiddie <lists@...>wrote:

                                    > On 3/3/11 11:07 PM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
                                    > > And even more amazing was that so many folks that failed to get date
                                    > > processing right presumed that their new-found scope included telling
                                    > > Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                                    >
                                    > The /SAME/ people? Or are you just lumping people into classes that
                                    > support your prejudice?
                                    >
                                    > If the former, you need some evidence. If the latter, I find it highly
                                    > offensive.
                                    >
                                    > - George
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                                    > Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                                    > Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                                    > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                    >
                                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                    >
                                    > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    --
                                    --
                                    C. Keith Ray
                                    Web: http://industriallogic.com
                                    Twitter: @CKeithRay, @IndustrialLogic

                                    Amplify Your Agility
                                    Coaching | Training | Assessment | eLearning


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Curtis Cooley
                                    ... perhaps even contribute to the disrespectful language you mentioned and I ll try to do better. I tend to try and get my point across smugly sometimes.
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                      On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hello, JeffGrigg. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 5:33:05 AM, you
                                      > wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > I plead "Guilty as charged."
                                      >
                                      > > Even this thread has just gone right off the rails,
                                      > > even with some apparent honest efforts moderate our own behavior.
                                      >
                                      > > We just keep circling back to the same core conflict.
                                      >
                                      > Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will
                                      > be welcome. :)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I see and appreciate your frustration, as I get frustrated as well. I
                                      perhaps even contribute to the "disrespectful language" you mentioned and
                                      I'll try to do better. I tend to try and get my point across smugly
                                      sometimes. It's a fault that goes way back.

                                      I do, however, often glean tidbits of information about agile and XP even
                                      when these threads go sideways. The signal to noise ratio is really high,
                                      but there is still good info in there sometimes.

                                      Perhaps, as a moderator, or perhaps any of us, one can, when we see threads
                                      going way off topic, simply reply and ask, "what does this topic have to do
                                      with XP?" Perhaps a gentle nudge will move things back on topic.

                                      I remember a wise man once told me how to handle employees who were
                                      misbehaving and holding up the team. He proposed a three step process:

                                      1. Take him aside and show him how is actions negatively affected the team
                                      2. Take him aside and explain that if he doesn't change, there will be
                                      consequences and tell him what they are
                                      3. Exercise the consequences

                                      For some reason I think that wise man was you, Ron :)
                                      --
                                      Curtis Cooley
                                      curtis.cooley@...
                                      home:http://curtiscooley.com
                                      blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
                                      ===============
                                      Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
                                      must be without one, be without the strategy.
                                      -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Ron Jeffries
                                      Hello, Curtis. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 11:24:17 AM, you ... You may have heard it from me. The idea belongs to Kent Beck. Good reminder though. :) Ron
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                        Hello, Curtis. On Friday, March 4, 2011, at 11:24:17 AM, you
                                        wrote:

                                        > I remember a wise man once told me how to handle employees who were
                                        > misbehaving and holding up the team. He proposed a three step process:

                                        > 1. Take him aside and show him how is actions negatively affected the team
                                        > 2. Take him aside and explain that if he doesn't change, there will be
                                        > consequences and tell him what they are
                                        > 3. Exercise the consequences

                                        > For some reason I think that wise man was you, Ron :)

                                        You may have heard it from me. The idea belongs to Kent Beck.
                                        Good reminder though. :)

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                        Perfect is the enemy of The Good.
                                        But don't forget, so is The Half-Assed. -- J P Barlow
                                      • Rick Mugridge
                                        I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe. But when there s no longer
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                          I often seek people out who have a different point of view, as I often
                                          learn something, even if it helps to clarify what I believe.

                                          But when there's no longer any hope of a real, exploratory, learning
                                          dialog, I move on (or delete email without reading it).

                                          Cheers, Rick

                                          On 4/03/2011 10:04 p.m., ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
                                          > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
                                          > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
                                          >
                                          > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
                                          > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                                          >
                                          > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                                          >
                                          > Thanks,
                                          >
                                          > R
                                          >
                                          > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
                                          > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
                                          > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
                                          > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                                          > >
                                          > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
                                          > another costly misdirection.
                                          > >
                                          > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                                          > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
                                          > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
                                          > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
                                          > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
                                          > doing wrong.
                                          > >
                                          > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
                                          > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
                                          > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
                                          > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
                                          > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                                          > >>
                                          > >> ---
                                          > >>
                                          > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
                                          > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
                                          > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
                                          > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
                                          > over-emphasizing "unification."
                                          > >>
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                          > >
                                          > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                          > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
                                          > >
                                          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                          > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
                                          > >
                                          > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Curtis Cooley
                                          ... is very low between the business people and the technical people. It s an old school place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need to
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                            On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 2:08 AM, JeffGrigg <jeffreytoddgrigg@...>wrote:

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > "Uncle Bob" posted a nice short (3 minute) video on the origin of The Agile
                                            > Manifesto, how we split, and where we should go from here:
                                            > http://cleancoder.posterous.com/stub6-restoring-the-trust
                                            >
                                            > This is nice and very appropriate at my current place of employ. The trust
                                            is very low between the business people and the technical people. It's an
                                            "old school" place where IT is seen as a necessary evil/cost center. We need
                                            to restore that trust, and re-unification is the most likely approach.

                                            I'm already discreetly introducing Kanban and value stream mapping to the
                                            PM's that will listen. My last value stream mapping session, one PM said
                                            this was the most useful analysis he's ever seen at this company. GRIN! We
                                            may just get a little agile movement going and be able to show how business
                                            people and technical people can work side by side and IT is not just a cost
                                            center.

                                            What does this have to do with XP? Well, I'm also trying to gather up the
                                            technical people that will listen and start an XP movement as well. The hope
                                            is to not only meet in the middle, but also introduce the XP practices the
                                            technical people will need to learn if any agile approach is going to work.

                                            It's better than sitting head down in a cube and coding all day.

                                            --
                                            Curtis Cooley
                                            curtis.cooley@...
                                            home:http://curtiscooley.com
                                            blog:http://ponderingobjectorienteddesign.blogspot.com
                                            ===============
                                            Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you
                                            must be without one, be without the strategy.
                                            -- H. Norman Schwarzkopf


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Tim Ottinger
                                            ... How about being less gooder? Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else you d go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                              > Yes. Any suggestions for what to do (other than all be gooder) will

                                              > be welcome. :)

                                              How about being less gooder?

                                              Basic story: Every place you go, there is something you want there, or else
                                              you'd go somewhere else. If someone demands pizza and skee ball from Morimoto's
                                              sushi restaurant, he should be directed to Chuck E's. Otherwise, he's ruining
                                              everyone's fine sushi dinner. Likewise, if he comes and complains every night
                                              because there's rice in the sushi, he's not a critic but a crank. Sushi has
                                              rice. That's what makes it sushi. Eat it or go to Chuck E's.

                                              I feel like I sat down to a $150.00 tasting menu, and my neighbor is complaining
                                              about the rice and ordering pizza and yelling at the waiters for not having
                                              skeeball. I'm not enjoying my meal. We've all had our say, and it's just
                                              circling back to the same-old same-old. Warnings have been issued. Next time,
                                              ban.

                                              Tim
                                            • Charlie Poole
                                              Hi Ron, The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I d like to feel that we can
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                                Hi Ron,

                                                The general topic of the origins of Agile and what has happened to it
                                                in the past ten years is very interesting to me. I'd like to feel that we
                                                can
                                                have a conversation around that without every thread being hijacked to
                                                argue for the peculiar re-definition of Agile that Marvin advocates.

                                                Of course, sometimes a thread just grows off in a different direction
                                                from where it started. But when it happens repeatedly, and each thread
                                                is taken in the same direction by the same person, I have to think that
                                                there is an intention to offend.

                                                Jeff's posting of Bob's video could have led to an interesting discussion
                                                well within the purpose of this group. It simply got hijacked. I made a
                                                post a while back that suffered the same fate.

                                                I suggest that you add systematic hijacking of threads to the list of
                                                things for which someone may be moderated or banned. Then give
                                                one or two warnings after which action should be taken.

                                                IMO, it's OK if Marvin wants to make posts about his views of where
                                                agile should go. So long as the subjects are clearly stated, anyone
                                                who is not interested can ignore them. It's when these views are
                                                repeatedly injected into other threads that I get annoyed.

                                                Charlie

                                                On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:04 AM, <ronjeffriesacm@...> wrote:

                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less relevant to
                                                > what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be less and less
                                                > respectful of people both absent and present.
                                                >
                                                > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do not
                                                > have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                                                >
                                                > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                                                >
                                                > Thanks,
                                                >
                                                > R
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...>
                                                > wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling IT
                                                > leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive bonuses were
                                                > curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                                                > >
                                                > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s... another
                                                > costly misdirection.
                                                > >
                                                > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                                                > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize as a
                                                > strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many folks that
                                                > failed to get date processing right presumed that their new-found scope
                                                > included telling Successful Companies what they are doing wrong.
                                                > >
                                                > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean CORBA,
                                                > that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS right ---
                                                > then maybe it would be time to start telling business leaders how we are
                                                > smarter than they are?
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg"
                                                > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                                                > >>
                                                > >> ---
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point for
                                                > everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions based on
                                                > interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a maturing of
                                                > the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is over-emphasizing
                                                > "unification."
                                                > >>
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                                > >
                                                > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                                > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                                > >
                                                > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • John Roth
                                                Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling. This is usually such a
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Mar 5, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Put him on moderation. The number of misrepresentations in the cited
                                                  post comes close to one per line - a clear sign of trolling.

                                                  This is usually such a pleasant group that people may have forgotten the
                                                  first law of dealing with a troll: don't reply.

                                                  John Roth

                                                  On 3/4/11 2:04 AM, ronjeffriesacm@... wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Advise me, people. I am finding these posts to be less and less
                                                  > relevant to what I take the purpose of this group to be, and to be
                                                  > less and less respectful of people both absent and present.
                                                  >
                                                  > At the same time, I freely grant that they are irritating me, and I do
                                                  > not have a record of good decisions when irritated.
                                                  >
                                                  > Your suggestions, pro or con, publicly or direct to me, will be helpful.
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks,
                                                  >
                                                  > R
                                                  >
                                                  > On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:07 PM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...
                                                  > <mailto:MarvinToll%40gtcGroup.com>> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > I appreciated Uncle Bob's reminder. In 2001 CEO's were still telling
                                                  > IT leaders to 'get lost' ... being really upset at how executive
                                                  > bonuses were curtailed because of the enormous costs associated with Y2K.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > And that was after the whole client/server debacle of the 90s...
                                                  > another costly misdirection.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > It is amazing that in that climate self-described "organizational
                                                  > anarchists" took it upon themselves to tell businesses how to organize
                                                  > as a strategy to build trust. And even more amazing was that so many
                                                  > folks that failed to get date processing right presumed that their
                                                  > new-found scope included telling Successful Companies what they are
                                                  > doing wrong.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > If we (IT) could just get CASE, I mean client-server, er, I mean
                                                  > CORBA, that is Entity Beans, oops... I mean JAX-RPC... oh well, JAX-WS
                                                  > right --- then maybe it would be time to start telling business
                                                  > leaders how we are smarter than they are?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, "JeffGrigg"
                                                  > <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> ---
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Personally, while I see value to the manifesto as a unifying point
                                                  > for everyone, I also see value to taking off in different directions
                                                  > based on interests and needs. And I would agree that this represents a
                                                  > maturing of the "movement." Personally, I wonder if Uncle Bob is
                                                  > over-emphasizing "unification."
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ------------------------------------
                                                  > >
                                                  > > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                                  > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                                  > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                                  > <mailto:extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >



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