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Re: [XP] Agile Manifesto Team Reconvenes

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  • ronjeffriesacm@gmail.com
    Hi Marvin, I suspect this conclusion is overstated, and backward. I suspect your difficulties are not about scale at all, but about culture. I suspect they are
    Message 1 of 70 , Feb 11, 2011
      Hi Marvin,

      I suspect this conclusion is overstated, and backward. I suspect your difficulties are not about scale at all, but about culture. I suspect they are not about Large Distributed Enterprise but about the one you happen to work at. I suspect that even that one could apply the Manifesto quite directly and fruitfully if they cared to.

      I suspect you are seeing, not Can't, but Won't.

      As for the thesis that Agile won't "scale" to the LDE, I suspect

      ... That there are counter-examples;
      ... That it depends how they are distributed;
      ... That your SLE isn't really working at the scale of the largest possible or even existing Agile distributed efforts;
      ... That Ford's failure ever to try Agile can hardly be taken as proof that Agile cannot work for all Large Distributed Enterorises in all time and space.

      In short, I suspect that you have generalized from a single failure to a very mistaken conclusion.

      To do Agile, you have to do what Agile says. To adapt Agile, you have to adapt using Agile principles. Your organization has never done either. Your organization has not tried Agile. You have standing to say that it's hard, but we knew that.

      Ford didn't try Agile. Not much of general value can be drawn from that: certainly not your conclusion.

      Regards,

      Ron

      On Feb 11, 2011, at 6:41 AM, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:

      > @Ron - Having thought about this over-night... I finally feel free to articulate what my experience working within Successful Large Enterprises has caused me to conclude:
      >
      > "The notion of Agile as embodied in the Agile Manifesto (including the 12 principles) is simply not scalable for a large distributed enterprise."
      >
      > Even if the Agile Manifesto (including the 12 principles) is not a scalable notion the document and what it represents is still highly valued.
      >
      > http://10yearsagile.org
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Kay A Pentecost
      +10,000 (and I swore I d never exaggerate again) Kay P
      Message 70 of 70 , Mar 3, 2011
        +10,000 (and I swore I'd never exaggerate again)

        Kay P

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Pietri
        > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 12:06 PM
        > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Agile Manifesto Team Reconvenes
        >
        > On 02/26/2011 03:50 AM, MarvinToll.com wrote:
        > > However, the tension arises when considering whether the 'Agile'
        > movement should stay focused on "working software" or continue down the
        > path of using "working software" as a wedge issue to promote social
        > engineering.
        > >
        > > [...]
        > >
        > > My hope for the 2011 gathering at Snow Bird was that they would stop the
        > scope creep. Let 'Agile' be about "working software" and let some other
        > "organizational anarchists" carry-on about the social re-engineering of
        > our companies.
        >
        >
        > You have this 100% backwards, MarvinToll.com.
        >
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