Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XP] Becoming rational about Irrationality

Expand Messages
  • Tim Ottinger
    Are these axioms or theorums? If axiomatic, they don t have to be proven. :-) Basically, the question is whether we need a rational proof of irrationality
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 13, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Are these axioms or theorums? If axiomatic, they don't have to be proven. :-)
      Basically, the question is whether we need a rational proof of irrationality
      being unresolvable. Oh, the clash of the modern and postmodern, how I
      love it!

      Tim Ottinger
      http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
      http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello, Tim. On Monday, December 13, 2010, at 12:29:29 PM, you ... If you behave as if people are irrational, you will often find that they are. If you behave
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 13, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello, Tim. On Monday, December 13, 2010, at 12:29:29 PM, you
        wrote:

        > Are these axioms or theorums? If axiomatic, they don't have to be proven. :-)
        > Basically, the question is whether we need a rational proof of irrationality
        > being unresolvable. Oh, the clash of the modern and postmodern, how I
        > love it!

        If you behave as if people are irrational, you will often find that
        they are. If you behave as if people are rational, you will often
        find that they are.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Testing quality into a program is like spinning straw into gold.
        -- George Cameron.
      • Dale Emery
        Hi Ron and all, ... I figure that people are largely heuristic most of the time. Not exactly rational in the sense of deciding by logic, but there s a kind of
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 13, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Ron and all,

          > If you behave as if people are irrational, you will often find that they
          > are. If you behave as if people are rational, you will often find that they
          > are.
          >
          I figure that people are largely heuristic most of the time. Not exactly
          rational in the sense of deciding by logic, but there's a kind of
          rationality in the heuristics.

          Dale

          --
          Dale Emery
          Consultant to software teams and leaders
          Web: http://dhemery.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Adam Sroka
          I find that I interface with other people better when I behave as if I am rational ;-) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 13, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            I find that I interface with other people better when I behave as if I am
            rational ;-)

            On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Dale Emery <dale@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > Hi Ron and all,
            >
            >
            > > If you behave as if people are irrational, you will often find that they
            > > are. If you behave as if people are rational, you will often find that
            > they
            > > are.
            > >
            > I figure that people are largely heuristic most of the time. Not exactly
            > rational in the sense of deciding by logic, but there's a kind of
            > rationality in the heuristics.
            >
            > Dale
            >
            > --
            > Dale Emery
            > Consultant to software teams and leaders
            > Web: http://dhemery.com
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • George Dinwiddie
            ... Yes, rational and irrational don t seem to be the only two choices. -- Dec. 14 - Agile Richmond in Glen Allen, VA http://georgedinwiddie.eventbrite.com/
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 13, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              On 12/13/10 2:34 PM, Dale Emery wrote:
              > Hi Ron and all,
              >
              >> If you behave as if people are irrational, you will often find that they
              >> are. If you behave as if people are rational, you will often find that they
              >> are.
              >>
              > I figure that people are largely heuristic most of the time. Not exactly
              > rational in the sense of deciding by logic, but there's a kind of
              > rationality in the heuristics.

              Yes, rational and irrational don't seem to be the only two choices.

              --
              Dec. 14 - Agile Richmond in Glen Allen, VA
              http://georgedinwiddie.eventbrite.com/
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
              Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
              Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            • Ron Jeffries
              Hello, George. On Monday, December 13, 2010, at 3:18:42 PM, you ... That s odd, because rationally ... Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com We cannot solve our
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 13, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello, George. On Monday, December 13, 2010, at 3:18:42 PM, you
                wrote:

                > Yes, rational and irrational don't seem to be the only two choices.

                That's odd, because rationally ...

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
                -- Albert Einstein
              • Tim Ottinger
                ... If you treat people as predictable, oh, who am I kidding.. people are full of surprises. Huge difference between irrational and stupid or foolish. People
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 13, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  ----- Original Message ----
                  > If you behave as if people are irrational, you will often find that
                  > they are. If you behave as if people are rational, you will often
                  > find that they are.

                  If you treat people as predictable, oh, who am I kidding.. people
                  are full of surprises.

                  Huge difference between irrational and stupid or foolish. People are
                  brilliant, chaotic, inventive, optimizing, changeable, and capable of
                  leaps of intuition and analogy that are shocking, amusing, and
                  educational.
                  If you do great things in ways that are unpredict
                  I respect people who are different, including those who are
                  intuitive in ways that I would never have anticipated, and
                  those who are rational beyond my knowledge.

                  If you treat amazing people as if they are purely rational
                  beings, you might find that you've underestimated them.
                  Likewise if you think you can understand people without
                  understanding the unique context of the person.problem

                  I'm at the modern/postmodern boundary. I think it's grand.

                  Tim Ottinger
                  http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                  http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
                • JeffGrigg
                  ... Yes, heuristics seem to guide most human behavior, from what I ve seen. Also, here s a heuristic that I have found useful: When you see people doing
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 30, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- Dale Emery <dale@...> wrote:
                    > I figure that people are largely heuristic most of the time.
                    > [...] there's a kind of rationality in the heuristics.

                    Yes, heuristics seem to guide most human behavior, from what I've seen.

                    Also, here's a heuristic that I have found useful:
                    "When you see people doing something bad, unproductive, and/or
                    self-destructive, realize that there is probably some good
                    reason motivating them to do this."

                    (IE: Most people are not insane. ;-)

                    When you see dysfunctional behavior, look for the positive benefits they get from that behavior. You'll have a better chance of reasoning with them and/or motivating different behavior if you see what's motivating them, rather than just thinking that they're crazy and/or irrational.

                    Like, why would team members or team leaders play "schedule chicken" -- hiding the fact that they or their team are behind schedule; causing risk to the project and company? Well, typically in most organizations, those who admit having problems are punished and/or demoted (in the process of being "helped" by well-meaning superiors), and most likely would have been better off without this "help", as their peers were just as late, if not more so (and hiding it more successfully). So receiving help hurts the receiver without benefiting the project/company, because the project(s) will get delayed anyway by others as their lateness becomes apparent.

                    "If you see people doing something apparently irrational,
                    realize that there is probably something motivating them
                    to do this."

                    You may not be able to address the root cause. But being aware of it at least lets you know what you're up against.
                  • PAUL
                    Hi Jeff, ... When I started this thread this is the type of thing I had in mind. There is always a rational explanation for the irrational. Organisations are a
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 30, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Jeff,

                      > "If you see people doing something apparently irrational,
                      > realize that there is probably something motivating them
                      > to do this."
                      >
                      > You may not be able to address the root cause. But being aware of it at least lets you know what you're up against.
                      >

                      When I started this thread this is the type of thing I had in mind. There is always a rational explanation for the irrational. Organisations are a complex web of motives and agendas, with people acting out of fear and the desire to preserve some modicum of personal safety as much as anything else.

                      When looked at in this way, supposedly irrational behaviour suddenly makes a lot of sense.

                      This along with the other false assumptions I outlined tells me that there are limits to our ability to affect organisational change, especially for large organisations. People are acting in dysfunctional ways for good reason. Removing those reasons and aligning the whole organisation is usually beyond our remit.

                      Regards,

                      Paul.
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.