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Re: Principle #11

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  • scott
    Well, it said the ecosystem must evolve to support both - it s about the surrounding organization as opposed to the agile team itself. This does seem
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 3, 2010
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      Well, it said the "ecosystem" must evolve to support both - it's about the surrounding organization as opposed to the agile team itself. This does seem important to success in a world where many (most? all?) organizations have to support both and where many organizations will be evolving from only supporting non-agile.

      scott


      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
      >
      > Being "sufficiently flexible to still support non-agile [...] teams" doesn't strike me as a particularly "Agile Manifesto" kind of statement. If we're so flexible as to include >NON-AGILE<, then how is this a "call to arms" statement of values for >Being AGILE<?
      >
      > I like some of their wording changes. But some of sounds a bit like political committee work.
      >
      > --- "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@> wrote:
      > > 3) This 'organizational ecosystem' deal sounds like it came
      > > from someone in a research capacity... vs. someone that
      > > spends their day implementing 'working software'.
      >
    • Kay
      Are you saying that Scott wrote this article because of you? Kay P
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 3, 2010
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        Are you saying that Scott wrote this article because of you?

        Kay P

        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:
        >
        > Scott,
        >
        > I'm glad you have taken seriously my suggestion to iterate the Principles - few folks have. A few comments:
        >
        > 1) I never suggested we should iterate the Values... and don't think there is a need to substitute two words.
        >
        > 2) The fundamental problem Principle... that is #11... has not been touched. Altering of Principle #11 is a systemic change focusing on scaling Agile.
        >
        > 3) This 'organizational ecosystem' deal sounds like it came from someone in a research capacity... vs. someone that spends their day implementing 'working software'.
        >
        > Perhaps you could make it to the 'Agile and Beyond' Conference? This would be a good place to have a wide-open face-to-face discussion on the topic.
        >
        >
      • MarvinToll.com
        Kay, Are you saying that a five month discussion on the Agile Alliance LinkedIn site with almost 400 posts did not influence the effort to begin looking
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 4, 2010
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          Kay,

          Are you saying that a five month discussion on the 'Agile Alliance' LinkedIn site with almost 400 posts did not influence the effort to begin looking seriously at reworking the Principles?

          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kay" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:
          >
          > Are you saying that Scott wrote this article because of you?
          >
          > Kay P
          >
        • Ron Jeffries
          Hello, MarvinToll.com. On Thursday, November 4, 2010, at 7:10:46 ... This topic remains off topic. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 4, 2010
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            Hello, MarvinToll.com. On Thursday, November 4, 2010, at 7:10:46
            AM, you wrote:

            > Are you saying that a five month discussion on the 'Agile
            > Alliance' LinkedIn site with almost 400 posts did not influence
            > the effort to begin looking seriously at reworking the Principles?

            This topic remains off topic. We now return you to your regularly
            scheduled discussion of how actually to do XP and Agile.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            You are to act in the light of experience as guided by intelligence.
            -- Nero Wolfe
          • Kay A Pentecost
            Marvin Toll wrote, ... No, I wasn t saying anything like that. What I asked was simply are you saying that Scott wrote that article because of you? There
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 4, 2010
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              Marvin Toll wrote,

              >
              > Kay,
              >
              > Are you saying that a five month discussion on the 'Agile Alliance'
              > LinkedIn site with almost 400 posts did not influence the effort to
              > begin looking seriously at reworking the Principles?

              No, I wasn't saying anything like that. What I asked was simply "are you
              saying that Scott wrote that article because of you?"

              There are many straight forward answers to a question like that.

              "Yes" is one, "No" is one. "Well.... " is an answer.


              Accusing me of trying to manipulate you into a specific answer is simply
              adversarial.

              And projection, on your part.

              Kay P


              >
              > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kay" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Are you saying that Scott wrote this article because of you?
              > >
              > > Kay P
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-
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              >
              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • ronjeffriesacm@gmail.com
              No. Really. Off topic. R
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 4, 2010
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                No. Really. Off topic.

                R

                On Nov 4, 2010, at 8:59 AM, "Kay A Pentecost" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:

                > Marvin Toll wrote,
                >
                >>
                >> Kay,
                >>
                >> Are you saying that a five month discussion on the 'Agile Alliance'
                >> LinkedIn site with almost 400 posts did not influence the effort to
                >> begin looking seriously at reworking the Principles?
                >
                > No, I wasn't saying anything like that. What I asked was simply "are you
                > saying that Scott wrote that article because of you?"
                >
                > There are many straight forward answers to a question like that.
                >
                > "Yes" is one, "No" is one. "Well.... " is an answer.
                >
                >
                > Accusing me of trying to manipulate you into a specific answer is simply
                > adversarial.
                >
                > And projection, on your part.
                >
                > Kay P
                >
                >
                >>
                >> --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kay" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:
                >>>
                >>> Are you saying that Scott wrote this article because of you?
                >>>
                >>> Kay P
                >>>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                >>
                >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-
                >> unsubscribe@...
                >>
                >> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                >
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                >
                > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • George Paci
                ... I have a raised front lawn, with a waist-high brick wall in the front. I planted some phlox there several years ago. It grew onto the top of the wall, and
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 5, 2010
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                  On 11/3/10 at 9:03 AM, Scott Ambler wrote:
                  > Well, it said the "ecosystem" must evolve to support both - it's about the surrounding organization as opposed to the agile team itself.
                  I have a raised front lawn, with a waist-high brick wall in the front.
                  I planted some phlox there several years ago. It grew onto the top of
                  the wall, and trapped leaves and other plant litter in its spiky leaves,
                  some of which also died and added to the detritus. After a few years,
                  there was a thin layer of what was undeniably soil atop the wall, which
                  the phlox proceeded to take root in, as part of its apparently
                  inexorable advance.

                  Analogies, whatever their other faults, are a good way of generating
                  questions and ideas which can then be tested out:

                  What's left over after a project that's useful in future projects? Is
                  there any way to make that more agile, or more likely to promote the
                  spread of agile principles in the enterprise?

                  What's the most hostile part of the business to agile (the wall)? Is
                  there a (possibly long, slow) road to converting it, replacing it, or
                  covering it up (adapting an interface to it)? Can a policy or standard
                  practice be changed by simply winning a long, consistent series of
                  "temporary" exceptions to it?

                  The wall actually helps the phlox by retaining heat; is there an
                  analogous way some non-agile part of the business can help the agile
                  part, even help it spread (e.g. a non-agile training department offering
                  agile courses)?

                  (This is all asked, of course, from the comfort of a small agile team on
                  a vital project, which I suppose corresponds to those bulbs I just planted.)


                  --George gpaci at tiac dot net

                  Think back: were the kids who were always saying
                  "That's stupid" the *smart* ones?
                • JeffGrigg
                  ... Answer: A highly productive jelled team. ;- ... We re good at recognizing our failures in others. ;-
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 5, 2010
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                    --- George Paci <gpaci@...> wrote:
                    > What's left over after a project that's useful in future projects?

                    Answer: A highly productive jelled team.

                    ;->



                    > Think back: were the kids who were always saying
                    > "That's stupid" the *smart* ones?

                    We're good at recognizing our failures in others. ;->
                  • George Paci
                    ... I agree, but I completely fail to see why you used a smiley. The entire reason I applied for my current job was that I was sure it was a highly-
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 6, 2010
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                      On 11/5/10 at 7:49 PM, JeffGrigg wrote:
                      > --- George Paci <gpaci@...> wrote:
                      >> What's left over after a project that's useful in future projects?
                      >
                      > Answer: A highly productive jelled team.
                      >
                      > ;->
                      >
                      I agree, but I completely fail to see why you used a smiley. The entire
                      reason I applied for my current job was that I was sure it was a highly-
                      productive jelled team.* Yet there are plenty of organizations that give
                      essentially no weight to the value of a jelled team, and in fact seem
                      blind to teams at all: they just shuffle individual developers around
                      between projects with no notion that they actually *interact* with each
                      other beyond exchanging sports banter at the water cooler.

                      Anyway, since I was dealing with bulbs again today: how do you build on
                      that team? Will it come up again next year (i.e. deliver as well on the
                      next project)? Can you grow it? At what point do you divide it? How
                      likely are the divided bulbs to come up the next year? What do you put
                      in the hole with it? (In my case, I have to put some sand down there
                      for drainage, in addition to compost and bulb fertilizer and whatever
                      everyone else needs.) When can you get rid of the dying leaves without
                      shortchanging the needs of the bulb for the next project?


                      Moving on to (more) off-topic stuff:
                      >> Think back: were the kids who were always saying
                      >> "That's stupid" the *smart* ones?
                      >
                      > We're good at recognizing our failures in others. ;->
                      >
                      I agree (see "Projection" at a convenient online encyclopedia near you), but
                      I don't see the connection to my signature. Are you saying I should ponder
                      what I consider stupid? Or what I considered stupid in high school?
                      (In high-school me's defense, I *thought* history and biology and economics
                      were stupid, but never actually *said* so.) I try to take criticism as
                      constructive, whenever humanly possible. Or anyway I try to try. Or
                      hope I try.

                      --George

                      (* In addition to being sure, I also turned out to be right.)

                      I wish the architect and management had spent more effort building a
                      product that a million people wanted to use, and less effort building
                      a product that could be used by a million people. --Kevin B. Smith
                    • JeffGrigg
                      ... Yes, perhaps a crying smiley would have been more appropriate: My thought was... And the first thing most companies disband as a project comes to a close
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 7, 2010
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                        >> --- George Paci <gpaci@> wrote:
                        >>> What's left over after a project that's useful in
                        >>> future projects?

                        --- George Paci <gpaci@...> wrote:
                        > --- JeffGrigg wrote:
                        >> Answer: A highly productive jelled team.
                        >> ;->

                        --- George Paci <gpaci@...> wrote:
                        > I agree, but I completely fail to see why you used a smiley.

                        Yes, perhaps a crying smiley would have been more appropriate:
                        My thought was...
                        "And the first thing most companies disband as a project
                        comes to a close ...is the highly-productive jelled team.
                        ...which is often recognized as the most valuable thing
                        that the team produced."

                        So I smile with a strong sense of irony.


                        > The entire reason I applied for my current job was that
                        > I was sure it was a highly-productive jelled team.* Yet
                        > there are plenty of organizations that give essentially
                        > no weight to the value of a jelled team, and in fact seem
                        > blind to teams at all: they just shuffle individual
                        > developers around between projects with no notion that
                        > they actually *interact* with each other beyond exchanging
                        > sports banter at the water cooler.

                        Seems like we're in violent agreement.


                        > how do you build on that team? Can you grow it?

                        Yep. I'd hope for an employer who not only has a good team, but who shows signs that they can grow more good teams too.



                        > Moving on to (more) off-topic stuff:
                        >>> Think back: were the kids who were always saying
                        >>> "That's stupid" the *smart* ones?

                        >> We're good at recognizing our failures in others. ;->

                        Agreement again: I'm saying that the kids saying "that's stupid" are probably good at recognizing that in others (but not themselves).


                        (If I'm out to get you, you'll know it. At work I've fired several people in my career. And in every case they knew weeks in advance that I was going to do them in, and what they had to do to change their behavior so that I wouldn't. And in those cases where they did not change their behavior, they were given an opportunity to grace our competitors with their fine skills. ;-> And in all cases I heard about later, the change turned out to be good for them.)
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