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Principle #11

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  • MarvinToll.com
    Ron: All I wanted to do was elaborate a bit on Principle #11... now look what we ve done!
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 2, 2010
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      Ron: All I wanted to do was elaborate a bit on Principle #11... now look what we've done!

      https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/ambler/entry/reworking_the_agile_manifesto14?lang=en
    • MarvinToll.com
      Scott, I m glad you have taken seriously my suggestion to iterate the Principles - few folks have. A few comments: 1) I never suggested we should iterate the
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 2, 2010
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        Scott,

        I'm glad you have taken seriously my suggestion to iterate the Principles - few folks have. A few comments:

        1) I never suggested we should iterate the Values... and don't think there is a need to substitute two words.

        2) The fundamental problem Principle... that is #11... has not been touched. Altering of Principle #11 is a systemic change focusing on scaling Agile.

        3) This 'organizational ecosystem' deal sounds like it came from someone in a research capacity... vs. someone that spends their day implementing 'working software'.

        Perhaps you could make it to the 'Agile and Beyond' Conference? This would be a good place to have a wide-open face-to-face discussion on the topic.

        http://AgileAndBeyond.org

        _Marvin

        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:
        >
        > Ron: All I wanted to do was elaborate a bit on Principle #11... now look what we've done!
        >
        > https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/ambler/entry/reworking_the_agile_manifesto14?lang=en
        >
      • JeffGrigg
        Being sufficiently flexible to still support non-agile [...] teams doesn t strike me as a particularly Agile Manifesto kind of statement. If we re so
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 2, 2010
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          Being "sufficiently flexible to still support non-agile [...] teams" doesn't strike me as a particularly "Agile Manifesto" kind of statement. If we're so flexible as to include >NON-AGILE<, then how is this a "call to arms" statement of values for >Being AGILE<?

          I like some of their wording changes. But some of sounds a bit like political committee work.

          --- "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:
          > 3) This 'organizational ecosystem' deal sounds like it came
          > from someone in a research capacity... vs. someone that
          > spends their day implementing 'working software'.
        • scott
          Well, it said the ecosystem must evolve to support both - it s about the surrounding organization as opposed to the agile team itself. This does seem
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 3, 2010
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            Well, it said the "ecosystem" must evolve to support both - it's about the surrounding organization as opposed to the agile team itself. This does seem important to success in a world where many (most? all?) organizations have to support both and where many organizations will be evolving from only supporting non-agile.

            scott


            --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg@...> wrote:
            >
            > Being "sufficiently flexible to still support non-agile [...] teams" doesn't strike me as a particularly "Agile Manifesto" kind of statement. If we're so flexible as to include >NON-AGILE<, then how is this a "call to arms" statement of values for >Being AGILE<?
            >
            > I like some of their wording changes. But some of sounds a bit like political committee work.
            >
            > --- "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@> wrote:
            > > 3) This 'organizational ecosystem' deal sounds like it came
            > > from someone in a research capacity... vs. someone that
            > > spends their day implementing 'working software'.
            >
          • Kay
            Are you saying that Scott wrote this article because of you? Kay P
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 3, 2010
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              Are you saying that Scott wrote this article because of you?

              Kay P

              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll@...> wrote:
              >
              > Scott,
              >
              > I'm glad you have taken seriously my suggestion to iterate the Principles - few folks have. A few comments:
              >
              > 1) I never suggested we should iterate the Values... and don't think there is a need to substitute two words.
              >
              > 2) The fundamental problem Principle... that is #11... has not been touched. Altering of Principle #11 is a systemic change focusing on scaling Agile.
              >
              > 3) This 'organizational ecosystem' deal sounds like it came from someone in a research capacity... vs. someone that spends their day implementing 'working software'.
              >
              > Perhaps you could make it to the 'Agile and Beyond' Conference? This would be a good place to have a wide-open face-to-face discussion on the topic.
              >
              >
            • MarvinToll.com
              Kay, Are you saying that a five month discussion on the Agile Alliance LinkedIn site with almost 400 posts did not influence the effort to begin looking
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 4, 2010
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                Kay,

                Are you saying that a five month discussion on the 'Agile Alliance' LinkedIn site with almost 400 posts did not influence the effort to begin looking seriously at reworking the Principles?

                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kay" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:
                >
                > Are you saying that Scott wrote this article because of you?
                >
                > Kay P
                >
              • Ron Jeffries
                Hello, MarvinToll.com. On Thursday, November 4, 2010, at 7:10:46 ... This topic remains off topic. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 4, 2010
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                  Hello, MarvinToll.com. On Thursday, November 4, 2010, at 7:10:46
                  AM, you wrote:

                  > Are you saying that a five month discussion on the 'Agile
                  > Alliance' LinkedIn site with almost 400 posts did not influence
                  > the effort to begin looking seriously at reworking the Principles?

                  This topic remains off topic. We now return you to your regularly
                  scheduled discussion of how actually to do XP and Agile.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  You are to act in the light of experience as guided by intelligence.
                  -- Nero Wolfe
                • Kay A Pentecost
                  Marvin Toll wrote, ... No, I wasn t saying anything like that. What I asked was simply are you saying that Scott wrote that article because of you? There
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 4, 2010
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                    Marvin Toll wrote,

                    >
                    > Kay,
                    >
                    > Are you saying that a five month discussion on the 'Agile Alliance'
                    > LinkedIn site with almost 400 posts did not influence the effort to
                    > begin looking seriously at reworking the Principles?

                    No, I wasn't saying anything like that. What I asked was simply "are you
                    saying that Scott wrote that article because of you?"

                    There are many straight forward answers to a question like that.

                    "Yes" is one, "No" is one. "Well.... " is an answer.


                    Accusing me of trying to manipulate you into a specific answer is simply
                    adversarial.

                    And projection, on your part.

                    Kay P


                    >
                    > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kay" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Are you saying that Scott wrote this article because of you?
                    > >
                    > > Kay P
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-
                    > unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • ronjeffriesacm@gmail.com
                    No. Really. Off topic. R
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 4, 2010
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                      No. Really. Off topic.

                      R

                      On Nov 4, 2010, at 8:59 AM, "Kay A Pentecost" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:

                      > Marvin Toll wrote,
                      >
                      >>
                      >> Kay,
                      >>
                      >> Are you saying that a five month discussion on the 'Agile Alliance'
                      >> LinkedIn site with almost 400 posts did not influence the effort to
                      >> begin looking seriously at reworking the Principles?
                      >
                      > No, I wasn't saying anything like that. What I asked was simply "are you
                      > saying that Scott wrote that article because of you?"
                      >
                      > There are many straight forward answers to a question like that.
                      >
                      > "Yes" is one, "No" is one. "Well.... " is an answer.
                      >
                      >
                      > Accusing me of trying to manipulate you into a specific answer is simply
                      > adversarial.
                      >
                      > And projection, on your part.
                      >
                      > Kay P
                      >
                      >
                      >>
                      >> --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kay" <tranzpupy@...> wrote:
                      >>>
                      >>> Are you saying that Scott wrote this article because of you?
                      >>>
                      >>> Kay P
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >>
                      >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-
                      >> unsubscribe@...
                      >>
                      >> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                      >
                      > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • George Paci
                      ... I have a raised front lawn, with a waist-high brick wall in the front. I planted some phlox there several years ago. It grew onto the top of the wall, and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 5, 2010
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                        On 11/3/10 at 9:03 AM, Scott Ambler wrote:
                        > Well, it said the "ecosystem" must evolve to support both - it's about the surrounding organization as opposed to the agile team itself.
                        I have a raised front lawn, with a waist-high brick wall in the front.
                        I planted some phlox there several years ago. It grew onto the top of
                        the wall, and trapped leaves and other plant litter in its spiky leaves,
                        some of which also died and added to the detritus. After a few years,
                        there was a thin layer of what was undeniably soil atop the wall, which
                        the phlox proceeded to take root in, as part of its apparently
                        inexorable advance.

                        Analogies, whatever their other faults, are a good way of generating
                        questions and ideas which can then be tested out:

                        What's left over after a project that's useful in future projects? Is
                        there any way to make that more agile, or more likely to promote the
                        spread of agile principles in the enterprise?

                        What's the most hostile part of the business to agile (the wall)? Is
                        there a (possibly long, slow) road to converting it, replacing it, or
                        covering it up (adapting an interface to it)? Can a policy or standard
                        practice be changed by simply winning a long, consistent series of
                        "temporary" exceptions to it?

                        The wall actually helps the phlox by retaining heat; is there an
                        analogous way some non-agile part of the business can help the agile
                        part, even help it spread (e.g. a non-agile training department offering
                        agile courses)?

                        (This is all asked, of course, from the comfort of a small agile team on
                        a vital project, which I suppose corresponds to those bulbs I just planted.)


                        --George gpaci at tiac dot net

                        Think back: were the kids who were always saying
                        "That's stupid" the *smart* ones?
                      • JeffGrigg
                        ... Answer: A highly productive jelled team. ;- ... We re good at recognizing our failures in others. ;-
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 5, 2010
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                          --- George Paci <gpaci@...> wrote:
                          > What's left over after a project that's useful in future projects?

                          Answer: A highly productive jelled team.

                          ;->



                          > Think back: were the kids who were always saying
                          > "That's stupid" the *smart* ones?

                          We're good at recognizing our failures in others. ;->
                        • George Paci
                          ... I agree, but I completely fail to see why you used a smiley. The entire reason I applied for my current job was that I was sure it was a highly-
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 6, 2010
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                            On 11/5/10 at 7:49 PM, JeffGrigg wrote:
                            > --- George Paci <gpaci@...> wrote:
                            >> What's left over after a project that's useful in future projects?
                            >
                            > Answer: A highly productive jelled team.
                            >
                            > ;->
                            >
                            I agree, but I completely fail to see why you used a smiley. The entire
                            reason I applied for my current job was that I was sure it was a highly-
                            productive jelled team.* Yet there are plenty of organizations that give
                            essentially no weight to the value of a jelled team, and in fact seem
                            blind to teams at all: they just shuffle individual developers around
                            between projects with no notion that they actually *interact* with each
                            other beyond exchanging sports banter at the water cooler.

                            Anyway, since I was dealing with bulbs again today: how do you build on
                            that team? Will it come up again next year (i.e. deliver as well on the
                            next project)? Can you grow it? At what point do you divide it? How
                            likely are the divided bulbs to come up the next year? What do you put
                            in the hole with it? (In my case, I have to put some sand down there
                            for drainage, in addition to compost and bulb fertilizer and whatever
                            everyone else needs.) When can you get rid of the dying leaves without
                            shortchanging the needs of the bulb for the next project?


                            Moving on to (more) off-topic stuff:
                            >> Think back: were the kids who were always saying
                            >> "That's stupid" the *smart* ones?
                            >
                            > We're good at recognizing our failures in others. ;->
                            >
                            I agree (see "Projection" at a convenient online encyclopedia near you), but
                            I don't see the connection to my signature. Are you saying I should ponder
                            what I consider stupid? Or what I considered stupid in high school?
                            (In high-school me's defense, I *thought* history and biology and economics
                            were stupid, but never actually *said* so.) I try to take criticism as
                            constructive, whenever humanly possible. Or anyway I try to try. Or
                            hope I try.

                            --George

                            (* In addition to being sure, I also turned out to be right.)

                            I wish the architect and management had spent more effort building a
                            product that a million people wanted to use, and less effort building
                            a product that could be used by a million people. --Kevin B. Smith
                          • JeffGrigg
                            ... Yes, perhaps a crying smiley would have been more appropriate: My thought was... And the first thing most companies disband as a project comes to a close
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 7, 2010
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                              >> --- George Paci <gpaci@> wrote:
                              >>> What's left over after a project that's useful in
                              >>> future projects?

                              --- George Paci <gpaci@...> wrote:
                              > --- JeffGrigg wrote:
                              >> Answer: A highly productive jelled team.
                              >> ;->

                              --- George Paci <gpaci@...> wrote:
                              > I agree, but I completely fail to see why you used a smiley.

                              Yes, perhaps a crying smiley would have been more appropriate:
                              My thought was...
                              "And the first thing most companies disband as a project
                              comes to a close ...is the highly-productive jelled team.
                              ...which is often recognized as the most valuable thing
                              that the team produced."

                              So I smile with a strong sense of irony.


                              > The entire reason I applied for my current job was that
                              > I was sure it was a highly-productive jelled team.* Yet
                              > there are plenty of organizations that give essentially
                              > no weight to the value of a jelled team, and in fact seem
                              > blind to teams at all: they just shuffle individual
                              > developers around between projects with no notion that
                              > they actually *interact* with each other beyond exchanging
                              > sports banter at the water cooler.

                              Seems like we're in violent agreement.


                              > how do you build on that team? Can you grow it?

                              Yep. I'd hope for an employer who not only has a good team, but who shows signs that they can grow more good teams too.



                              > Moving on to (more) off-topic stuff:
                              >>> Think back: were the kids who were always saying
                              >>> "That's stupid" the *smart* ones?

                              >> We're good at recognizing our failures in others. ;->

                              Agreement again: I'm saying that the kids saying "that's stupid" are probably good at recognizing that in others (but not themselves).


                              (If I'm out to get you, you'll know it. At work I've fired several people in my career. And in every case they knew weeks in advance that I was going to do them in, and what they had to do to change their behavior so that I wouldn't. And in those cases where they did not change their behavior, they were given an opportunity to grace our competitors with their fine skills. ;-> And in all cases I heard about later, the change turned out to be good for them.)
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