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Re: [XP] agile developer pay

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  • Tim Ottinger
    In this economy, not losing pay is a good thing. I have a tendency to hunker down when things are in the crapper. So do you make enough? Would 10% mean you
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 20, 2010
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      In this economy, not losing pay is a good thing. I have a tendency to hunker
      down
      when things are in the crapper. So do you make "enough?" Would 10% mean you
      would
      do less interesting work somewhere else? Have you predicated your plans for
      survival on an ever-increasing income, or are you well within the means you
      have?

      "Enough" sounds like "not as much as I could make" and ambition says we should
      have a huge bump as often as possible, but sometimes being around to see what
      happens another year down the line is worth not taking an immediate bump.

      Are you learning, growing, becoming more valuable? Do you want to get off of
      that ride or continue?

      If you don't make "enough" and are not growing in your position, and are not
      increasing your value to the market and reachign your goals while staying, then
      go.

      If, on the other hand, you're within your means, increasing your expertise and
      reputation, reaching financial goals, and another year or two would improve you
      even more then staying sounds good.

      I took a full-time gig expecting to move on after 6 months or a year, and it's
      already been more than two. I keep learning, growing, and while I'm not going
      to get rich at this rate it pays my bills and makes my mortgage and leaves me
      enough time for other things that _also_ increase my value. It's a good match,
      in a bad economy, and I stay.

      So that's the first thing -- do you stay? Second thing is what you should make
      while you're there.

      Tim Ottinger
      http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
      http://agileotter.blogspot.com/



      ----- Original Message ----
      > From: eligarepoleved <eligarepoleved@...>
      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wed, October 20, 2010 12:17:55 AM
      > Subject: [XP] agile developer pay
      >
      > As a lead agile developer / coach, how have you negotiated a pay raise?
      >
      > I've recently been promoted from Sr. Software Engineer to the lead position --
      >but without an increase in salary -- despite successfully helping the team
      >reach a high level on most of the agile practices.
      >
      > My usual practice is to leave the company and get a new job after 2-3 years
      >with a 15% - 20% raise.
      >
      >
      > This time I'd like to stay. Any tips on convincing the manager on helping me
      >get a raise?
      >
      >
      >
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    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello, Wouter. On Wednesday, October 20, 2010, at 7:33:14 AM, you ... Yes, and yes. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com www.xprogramming.com/blog Just write the
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 20, 2010
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        Hello, Wouter. On Wednesday, October 20, 2010, at 7:33:14 AM, you
        wrote:

        > Yes, that will also happen... That is why I qualified with a 'under current
        > market rate'.
        > More money won't keep someone if they're not happy in the job anyway. Not
        > keeping salaries related to market conditions (esp. if this causes
        > significant differences between developers hired three years ago and
        > developers hired last month) can actually drive people away even if they're
        > happy in their job.

        > IIRC the term used in my economy handbooks was that money is a dissatisfier,
        > not a satisfier.

        Yes, and yes.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        www.xprogramming.com/blog
        Just write the damn test, until you can snatch the stone from my hand.
        Then, write the test.
      • D.AndrĂ© Dhondt
        ... Find out what you re worth, in market terms, by doing a search on a salary survey site. The numbers are debatable, especially if it s self-reported income,
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 20, 2010
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          On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:17 AM, eligarepoleved <eligarepoleved@...>wrote:

          > This time I'd like to stay. Any tips on convincing the manager on helping
          > me get a raise?
          >
          Find out what you're worth, in market terms, by doing a search on a salary
          survey site. The numbers are debatable, especially if it's self-reported
          income, as opposed to employer-supplied data--but it will give you a place
          to shoot for when you talk to your boss. Asking for a raise is touchy,
          especially in a team environment--but if you're not in the right ballpark
          salary-wise, you may be feeling unfairly treated. Fix that or it's bad for
          the team too.

          You don't need to set up a will struggle. Ask lightly if your new job title
          comes with a salary review, or ask if you could do a performance review with
          the boss. Tell your boss what you're looking for--and consider other perks
          that aren't financial so you have more ways to leave happy from the
          discussion. Ask if there's any possibility to get you into the salary range
          you're shooting for, now or in the future--ask for ideas on what you might
          work on / improve to get there. Instead of a will struggle, this becomes a
          partnership. Maybe you'll get something now--maybe something for the
          future... but having a plan may be reassuring for both of you.


          --
          D. André Dhondt
          mobile: 215-805-0819
          skype: d.andre.dhondt
          twitter: adhondt http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/

          Support low-cost conferences -- http://AgileTour.org/
          If you're in the area, join Agile Philly http://www.AgilePhilly.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • MarvinToll.com
          I avoid linking pay to any explicit or implicit (non-legally binding) inference for remaining with a client. I value responding to change over following a
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 21, 2010
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            I avoid linking pay to any explicit or implicit (non-legally binding) inference for remaining with a client. I value 'responding to change' over 'following a promise'.

            --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "eligarepoleved" <eligarepoleved@...> wrote:
            >
            > This time I'd like to stay. Any tips on convincing the manager on helping me get a raise?
            >
          • eligarepoleved
            So based on this single trial, I should not ask for a raise? I should just leave. I think there is a more sophisticated approach. I don t really want to
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 27, 2010
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              So based on this single trial, I should not ask for a raise? I should just leave.

              I think there is a more sophisticated approach. I don't really want to leave, I want to stay and earn the pay for the value I have provided.


              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello, Wouter. On Wednesday, October 20, 2010, at 7:11:31 AM, you
              > wrote:
              >
              > > Additionally, if you think you're being paid under current market rate, you
              > > could tell your manager exactly what you say in your post: the usual way to
              > > get more money is to leave, and I really don't want to, so what can we do?
              >
              > Once upon a time, a developer came to me and said, in essence, that
              > if I paid him more, he would stay. I paid him more. Not much after
              > that, he left anyway.
              >
              > In this case, I experienced one-trial learning. I would not do that
              > again.
              >
              > Ron Jeffries
              > www.XProgramming.com
              > www.xprogramming.com/blog
              > The model that really matters is the one that people have in
              > their minds. All other models and documentation exist only to
              > get the right model into the right mind at the right time.
              > -- Paul Oldfield
              >
            • eligarepoleved
              Maybe I should come work in the Netherlands -- there is a serious tech leadership / managment issue in the US.
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 27, 2010
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                Maybe I should come work in the Netherlands -- there is a serious tech leadership / managment issue in the US.


                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Wouter Lagerweij <wouter@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > Apart from any agile aspects, you've been given a new role, one that (seeing
                > that there's 'lead' in the name) has some new responsibilities. Was the lack
                > of any salary increase explicit? Or was it just not talked about?
                > I have had the same situation happen to me once, where salary was not
                > discussed up-front, and simply talked to the manager involved. I pointed out
                > that they were making some new responsibilities 'official' with the new
                > role, and that it had surprised me that the salary wasn't being kept in
                > sync... That was sufficient in that case.
                > Additionally, if you think you're being paid under current market rate, you
                > could tell your manager exactly what you say in your post: the usual way to
                > get more money is to leave, and I really don't want to, so what can we do?
                >
                > I'm writing from the Netherlands, where relations with management is usually
                > quite direct and not very hierarchical, so take that into account...
                >
                > Wouter
                >
                > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:17 AM, eligarepoleved <eligarepoleved@...>wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > As a lead agile developer / coach, how have you negotiated a pay raise?
                > >
                > > I've recently been promoted from Sr. Software Engineer to the lead position
                > > -- but without an increase in salary -- despite successfully helping the
                > > team reach a high level on most of the agile practices.
                > >
                > > My usual practice is to leave the company and get a new job after 2-3 years
                > > with a 15% - 20% raise.
                > >
                > > This time I'd like to stay. Any tips on convincing the manager on helping
                > > me get a raise?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Ron Jeffries
                Hello, eligarepoleved. On Wednesday, October 27, 2010, at ... The guy came to me and said pay me more or I ll leave. I chose. I m suggesting that many
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 27, 2010
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                  Hello, eligarepoleved. On Wednesday, October 27, 2010, at
                  11:57:06 AM, you wrote:

                  > So based on this single trial, I should not ask for a raise? I
                  > should just leave.

                  The guy came to me and said pay me more or I'll leave. I chose.

                  I'm suggesting that many rational managers would do the same, and
                  since your note here sounded like you might consider saying
                  something like that, I thought you might value some real world
                  experience. I believe that you need a more sophisticated approach.

                  > I think there is a more sophisticated approach. I don't really
                  > want to leave, I want to stay and earn the pay for the value I
                  > have provided.

                  That's good, everyone deserves to be paid fairly. How do you know
                  what's fair? How might you communicate that in a non-threatening way
                  to you management.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  You can observe a lot by watching. --Yogi Berra
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