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how agilke by principle and practice

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  • Tim Ottinger
    My teammates and manager asked if we were agile or not. I gave a lowish rating, someone else said we totally were, another said we were not. So I went through
    Message 1 of 82 , Sep 22, 2010
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      My teammates and manager asked if we were agile or not. I gave a lowish rating, someone else said we totally were, another said we were not. So I went through principles and practices point by point in an email to the group.

      I have to rethink things, because I think we are more agile than I realized in many ways but our practices are not fully evolved.

      Soon I realized that id been selling us short and some colleagues had been in a "100% or nothing" mode.

      Now I wondeer if practices aren't worth assessing and whether values are sufficient and whether "agile" isn't too loose and we should aim for XP proper.

      An interesting money-where-your-mouth-is exercise.
    • PAUL
      Hi Tim, Good question. Maybe because I use the preview feature alot, or it could be my browser: Chrome on Mac OSX. Anyway I ve taken to making sure I delete
      Message 82 of 82 , Sep 29, 2010
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        Hi Tim,

        Good question. Maybe because I use the preview feature alot, or it could be my browser: Chrome on Mac OSX.

        Anyway I've taken to making sure I delete any white space that is introduced before sending.

        Sorry for the inconvenience, and I am watching out for it.

        (STOP THE PRESS: Just done an experiment. Every time I toggle between edit and preview, white space is added at the top. Try it out with your browser).

        Paul.

        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> wrote:
        >
        > Side topic, but PAUL, why are all your messages preceded by a buttload of
        > whitespace?
        >
        > Tim Ottinger
        > http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
        > http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > > From: PAUL <beckfordp@...>
        > > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 10:31:53 AM
        > > Subject: [XP] Re: how agilke by principle and practice
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Ron,
        > >
        > > Understood, and yes I agree wholeheartedly. Please see my comments:
        > >
        > > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@>
        > >wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hello, PAUL. On Tuesday, September 28, 2010, at 8:20:12 AM, you
        > > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > I agree with you. I think there are two arguments here and they are worth
        > >separating.
        > > >
        > > > > 1. Practice trumps rhetoric
        > > >
        > > > > This is your point and I agree. I'd much rather people shut up
        > > > > about "being Agile" and get on and do stuff. It is only through doing do
        > >we have any effect.
        > > >
        > > > > 2. Practice relies on commitment and belief
        > > >
        > > > Yes, good. I'd add the notion that "commitment" and "belief" are not
        > > > XP values and that one might find the commitment and belief in some
        > > > other aspect of one's spirit.
        > >
        > > I don't limit my values to those called out in XPE1 or XPE2 for that matter.
        > >In fact I was rather disappointed when Kent felt the need to extend XPs values
        > >in XPE2 because it gave the impression that XP could in some way be made
        > >complete.
        > >
        > > I'm a believer that often less is more, so I prefer XPE1. A number of the
        > >authors of the Agile manifesto have added to the Agile literature in ways that
        > >I have found useful, and I've gained from exploring a number of different
        > >perspectives. I also found the discussion on the C2 wiki invaluable, along with
        > >discussion on forums such as this. All of which I add to my toolbox, ready to
        > >mix and blend into my own concoction as required. A concoction that tends to
        > >come out looking pretty much like XP most of the time.
        > >
        > > >
        > > > > To get good is hard work (which is why incidentally most people
        > > > > prefer to talk a good fight :)). So to commit yourself to hours of
        > > > > drudgery where your performance is likely to decrease before it
        > > > > increases, you've got to be committed. You've got to believe in
        > > > > the final outcome. If you didn't believe you wouldn't do it.
        > > >
        > > > Here, I do not agree, but it could just be about me. I have avoided
        > > > hard work all my life, and it has worked out well. I have focused as
        > > > much as possible on things I enjoy. I happen to enjoy learning about
        > > > programming, for example, so little of it has ever been drudgery for
        > > > me.
        > >
        > > I'm lazy too and I see it as a positive trait :) My laziness gives me the
        > >discipline to persevere with practices that I believe will reduce drudgery and
        > >increase joy. I guess that's what I meant :)
        > >
        > > >
        > > > "Joy" is not one of the XP values, though perhaps it should be. It
        > > > is one of my values, and to the extent that I improve, it is mostly
        > > > about seeking and finding joy.
        > > >
        > >
        > > Something that I've participated in is declaring team values. Every time I've
        > >done it joy and/or fun has been up there. So the message about joy has got
        > >across :)
        > >
        > > > > I think you've managed to mangle the two, but if you separate
        > > > > them like this then yes I agree.
        > > >
        > > > Good. I'm happy to have them separated and think we're quite close
        > > > in our thinking on this.
        > > >
        > > > > Where the two come together is in the role of a teacher. If a
        > > > > teacher can demonstrate a positive outcome through her practice,
        > > > > then the students are more likely to commit themselves to the
        > > > > practice they need to perform to become good themselves. They will
        > > > > value what the teacher can do and hence what she has to say.
        > > >
        > > > Yes ... and this is the core of much of the teaching that Chet and I
        > > > do. Our Agile Skills class, for example, causes the attendees to do
        > > > the practices, albeit often clumsily, and they begin to get an
        > > > appreciation for why one would do them. We observe what happens, and
        > > > try to help them see the forces at work.
        > > >
        > > > I would say in passing that three days, the standard Scrum Alliance
        > > > CSD course period, is too short for our taste. We like the
        > > > participants to follow an arc of trying, succeeding, failing, and
        > > > recovering, and while we can reliably give them that experience in a
        > > > week, it's a bit iffy in only three days.
        > >
        > > The best software course I've been on was OO Analysis and Design with Bob
        > >Martin and that was for a whole week. It takes that kind of time to go through
        > >the learning cycle you describe. Unfortunately managers nowadays are seldom
        > >willing/able to let people go for more then two days at a time.
        > >
        > >
        > > >
        > > > In the end, though, our finding is that we can talk about what to
        > > > value all day (and we do) but that what gets people to learn and
        > > > adopt the values is letting them have the experience of the benefits
        > > > for themselves.
        > >
        > > For me seeing is believing. Watching someone better them me doing it (which I
        > >have had the good fortune to enjoy several times), and struggling and finally
        > >being able to do it myself.
        > >
        > > Practice is the key, getting people doing it is the challenge.
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > Paul.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
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