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Re: [XP] Re: Software Craftsmanship

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  • Charlie Poole
    Hello Marvin, I don t know what Laurent thinks, but in my view you re putting much too much importance on the Agile Alliance to define what agile is or isn t.
    Message 1 of 370 , Sep 2, 2010
      Hello Marvin,

      I don't know what Laurent thinks, but in my view you're putting much
      too much importance
      on the Agile Alliance to define what agile is or isn't. I expect a
      trade association to _respond_
      to changes in how the trade is carried out, neither more nor less.

      Your entire premise seems to be that changing some words in the bylaws of the AA
      will change what agile is. You have it backwards AFAIC.

      I must take note that folks have cited a variety of different reasons
      to oppose you proposal:

      1. Inconsistency with agile
      2. Misunderstanding and misuse of patterns
      3. Wanting to change an historical document
      4. Misunderstanding the relation of the Agile Alliance to the community

      One only needs to disagree with you in just one of those areas to
      reject the whole notion.

      That's not a good way to get agreement.


      On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 1:08 PM, MarvinToll.com <MarvinToll@...> wrote:
      > Sounds like you might agree that the 'Agile Alliance' has a responsibility to help the community "anticipate" change; not function merely as a repository for yesteryears best practices???
      > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Laurent Bossavit <laurent@...> wrote:
      >> > hmmm... Is their a difference between 'adapting' to change and
      >> > 'responding' to change?
      >> >
      >> I could quote verbatim an old blog post of mine on that topic... You
      >> know what, I *will* quote it in full and verbatim:
      >> ***
      >> To react is less effective than to respond. To respond is less
      >> effective than to anticipate.
      >> Often a crisis comes and it becomes obvious that none of the available
      >> immediate responses will be a solution. "The solution to this problem
      >> is X, but we needed to start doing it six months ago (or twenty years,
      >> or whatever)."
      >> Next observation: "We can start doing X now, but we'll have to suffer
      >> the problem for six more months (or twenty years)." That's when you're
      >> lucky. When you're unlucky, the observation is more along the lines
      >> of, "We can start doing X now, but it won't do us any good because
      >> we'll be dead well before it starts to be effective."
      >> We could start providing jobs and better housing to the least
      >> advantaged among us, but the cars are already burning. I could start
      >> broadening my skills to play the job market better, but my position is
      >> being moved offshore next month. We could start testing and investing
      >> in code quality, but the customer is already soured on the project.
      >> How do we act on problems early, before they become crises ? A nifty
      >> phrase I've heard recently is "weak signals". Devote some attention to
      >> spotting weak signals and amplifying them. Of course, noise will make
      >> this a delicate task. The payoff is early intervention - think of
      >> smoke detectors.
      >> A good way to spot weak signals is to embed your objectives in a
      >> system of values. Then weak signals will manifest as feelings that
      >> something is slightly, vaguely wrong.
      >> If you value social justice, you will be bothered by "small" problems
      >> of discrimination or rising unemployment, even if (temporarily) these
      >> look like a small price to pay for economic prosperity. If you value
      >> quality, even relatively harmless bugs will leave you with an uneasy,
      >> niggling feeling. If you value learning for its own sake, you will
      >> move on to new skills any time you feel insufficiently challenged, etc.
      >> Laurent Bossavit
      >> laurent@...
      > ------------------------------------
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    • Bill Caputo
      ... The problem is that it isn t just one topic - its at least 2 or 3 and as near as I can tell constitutes the entire traffic of the list right now. Also, I
      Message 370 of 370 , Sep 8, 2010
        On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
        > Seems not reading this topic might suffice ... but to each his own
        > ... I guess.

        The problem is that it isn't just one topic - its at least 2 or 3 and
        as near as I can tell constitutes the entire traffic of the list right
        now. Also, I can't not read things, it's a medical condition or

        > I know Marvin and I am confident that he's trying to do as right a
        > thing as he can.

        I agree with that. The again, the road to hell and all that...

        > I freely grant that I cannot figure out why what we
        > are saying seems to elude him.

        I don't know either. We could ask him, I suppose. But I expect it'll
        just start the whole thing all over again.

        > I suppose we could stop trying, but
        > that seems wrong to me.

        To each his own... I guess ;->

        > I'd say that if the thread ticks you, or
        > anyone, off ... start new ones, respond to other ones, pitch in in
        > other ways.

        Well, as I said, no other threads seem to be going on right now. If I
        can think of something constructive to say, I'll start a new one.
        However, I apologize to the list for venting publicly (and so adding
        to the noise). I'll stick to signal or silence for a while.

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