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Re: [XP] Re: Software Craftsmanship

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  • Steven Gordon
    ... But, on an agile team, the newbies are immersed into a team where they continuously pair with, collaborate with and get direct feedback from experienced
    Message 1 of 370 , Sep 1, 2010
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      On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:38 AM, scott preece <sepreece@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > It would scan better with a couple of minor changes:
      >
      >
      > Software that's coded by monkeys
      > Is messy and smells rather funky.
      >
      > It's cluttered, and fragile,
      > And nothing like agile,
      >
      > But it's dope to a waterfall junkie.
      >
      > In fairness, though, Marvin's "coders" presumably are beginners, rather
      > than monkeys - they have a certain minimal level of programming skill, but
      > limited experience (and, consequently, limited insight), and most of them
      > will eventually gain that experience and go on to jobs with greater
      > responsibility and higher pay. Everybody starts somewhere - even agile
      > projects are likely to have some people with much less experience than
      > others on the team.
      >

      But, on an agile team, the newbies are immersed into a team where they
      continuously pair with, collaborate with and get direct feedback from
      experienced developers. It is an informal kind of apprenticeship.


      >
      > The point to patterns as pedagogy is to give names to ways of doing things,
      > so that people can talk in more meaningful terms. Like having code standards
      > and using common notations for models, this improves communication, which I
      > think we agree is at the heart of successful development.
      >

      Patterns are useful, but far from not sufficient. They are no substitute
      for collaboration, feedback, or apprenticeship. Marvin was suggesting that
      because collaboration/apprenticeship was impractical in his reality, we
      should update the agile principles to bless communication via working
      software patterns alone.

      SteveG


      >
      > scott
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bill Caputo
      ... The problem is that it isn t just one topic - its at least 2 or 3 and as near as I can tell constitutes the entire traffic of the list right now. Also, I
      Message 370 of 370 , Sep 8, 2010
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        On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
        > Seems not reading this topic might suffice ... but to each his own
        > ... I guess.

        The problem is that it isn't just one topic - its at least 2 or 3 and
        as near as I can tell constitutes the entire traffic of the list right
        now. Also, I can't not read things, it's a medical condition or
        something...

        > I know Marvin and I am confident that he's trying to do as right a
        > thing as he can.

        I agree with that. The again, the road to hell and all that...

        > I freely grant that I cannot figure out why what we
        > are saying seems to elude him.

        I don't know either. We could ask him, I suppose. But I expect it'll
        just start the whole thing all over again.

        > I suppose we could stop trying, but
        > that seems wrong to me.

        To each his own... I guess ;->

        > I'd say that if the thread ticks you, or
        > anyone, off ... start new ones, respond to other ones, pitch in in
        > other ways.

        Well, as I said, no other threads seem to be going on right now. If I
        can think of something constructive to say, I'll start a new one.
        However, I apologize to the list for venting publicly (and so adding
        to the noise). I'll stick to signal or silence for a while.

        Best,
        Bill
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