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Re: Kai Gilb: 7 truths about Agile and Scrum that people don't want to hear

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  • criesbeck
    I ve been teaching CS students and project managers (most without software backgrounds) Agile ideas for several years now, trying to meld the themes and
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 4, 2010
      I've been teaching CS students and project managers (most without software backgrounds) Agile ideas for several years now, trying to meld the themes and principles I've seen as a lurker on this group since 2000, and a follower of XP discussions on comp.object.moderated before that.

      To me it's been blatantly obvious that the whole point was to deliver early client value. I start my spiels for PMs with three top goals any project process should have, in this order of importance:

      - a satisfied client
      - a happy productive team
      - a profitable business

      I did resonate very slightly with two points. One is that *students* often write stories of functional but not business value. I just tried my hand at a blog entry on this here:

      http://allcritiquesgreatandsmall.blogspot.com/2010/03/early-client-value-is-more-than-just.html

      And like the Gilbs, I get more insight out of the Agile Principles than the Agile Manifesto. But it's grasping at straws to say that that's putting value on page two.

      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Sebastian" <paymentexpert@...> wrote:
      >
      > First I thought this would be the usual rant but there is more to it than I initially thought:
      >
      > http://gilb.com/blogpost111-7-truths-about-Agile-and-Scrum-that-people-don-t-want-to-hear-Part-0-of-7
      >
      > The goal is really to aid the user and not to produce working software. The latter is just a precondition, not the goal for the stakeholders such as the users of the software.
      >
      > Maybe Agile should step to the next level: From creating working software to create solutions that help the stakeholders meet their individual goals.
      >
      > What do you think?
      >
      > Sebastian Kübeck
      >
    • Ilja Preuß
      OK, apparently you need to register with the site to be able to comment. Not sure I wanna do that. Cheers, Ilja
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 4, 2010
        OK, apparently you need to register with the site to be able to
        comment. Not sure I wanna do that.

        Cheers, Ilja

        2010/3/3 Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@...>:
        > Interestingly, there *are* already comments posted. I contacted Kay on
        > twitter about it - perhaps we are missing something, or it's an
        > oversight. I will keep you posted.
        >
        > Cheers, Ilja
        >
        > 2010/3/3 Charlie Poole <cpoole@...>:
        >> Hi Dave,
        >>
        >>> On 03/03/2010 8:05 AM, Ilja Preuß wrote:
        >>> > As an aside, am I the only one who doesn't see how to add a
        >>> comment to
        >>> > that blog?
        >>> >
        >>>
        >>> Nope - I couldn't see a link either.
        >>
        >> This looks like blogging as a publishing mechanism - no feedback
        >> desired. It's an odd model for us, but some folks use it.
        >>
        >> It's somewhat amusing is that lack of understanding of feedback
        >> is evident in the text as well.
        >>
        >> Charlie
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------
        >>
        >> To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@...
        >>
        >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
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        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
      • Tim Ottinger
        ... I think that s just another way to say Agile fails to promote my business model. Tim Ottinger http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 4, 2010
          > However, "Agile has a FATAL flaw which is adressed by idea X which
          > I've been advocating" is a marketing tactic. Please give me idea X
          > without the faux-skeptic message.

          I think that's just another way to say "Agile fails to promote my
          business model."

          Tim Ottinger
          http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
          http://agileotter.blogspot.com/

          >
        • paul
          Clearly the author has difficulty understanding plain English. The only part of it that I thought had any merit whatsoever was the notion that agile is
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 9, 2010
            Clearly the author has difficulty understanding plain English.

            The only part of it that I thought had any merit whatsoever was the notion that agile is "developer centric". Well so what ??, happy developers are productive developers.

            --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Sebastian" <paymentexpert@...> wrote:
            >
            > First I thought this would be the usual rant but there is more to it than I initially thought:
            >
            > http://gilb.com/blogpost111-7-truths-about-Agile-and-Scrum-that-people-don-t-want-to-hear-Part-0-of-7
            >
            > The goal is really to aid the user and not to produce working software. The latter is just a precondition, not the goal for the stakeholders such as the users of the software.
            >
            > Maybe Agile should step to the next level: From creating working software to create solutions that help the stakeholders meet their individual goals.
            >
            > What do you think?
            >
            > Sebastian Kübeck
            >
          • Steve Ropa
            I honestly don t agree that agile is developer centric . In enables developers greatly , but the underlying message continues to be that we are developing
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 10, 2010
              I honestly don't agree that agile is "developer centric". In enables developers greatly , but the underlying message continues to be that we are developing the software that *provides business value*.

              The other part of his rant that I just don't understand is his assertion that agile hampers creativity. How could a sentence on a card that starts a conversation about a feature possibly be more restrictive than a 30 page document with a list of "shalls" and "shall nots"?


              From: paul
              Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 10:58 AM
              To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [XP] Re: Kai Gilb: 7 truths about Agile and Scrum that people don't want to hear




              Clearly the author has difficulty understanding plain English.

              The only part of it that I thought had any merit whatsoever was the notion that agile is "developer centric". Well so what ??, happy developers are productive developers.

              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Sebastian" <paymentexpert@...> wrote:
              >
              > First I thought this would be the usual rant but there is more to it than I initially thought:
              >
              > http://gilb.com/blogpost111-7-truths-about-Agile-and-Scrum-that-people-don-t-want-to-hear-Part-0-of-7
              >
              > The goal is really to aid the user and not to produce working software. The latter is just a precondition, not the goal for the stakeholders such as the users of the software.
              >
              > Maybe Agile should step to the next level: From creating working software to create solutions that help the stakeholders meet their individual goals.
              >
              > What do you think?
              >
              > Sebastian Kübeck
              >





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