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Re: Kai Gilb: 7 truths about Agile and Scrum that people don't want to hear

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  • JackM
    I read this post. It s easy to focus on one aspect of Scrum whilst ignoring other aspects. For example, Kai shows the Scrum process drawing ... nowhere does he
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 3, 2010
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      I read this post. It's easy to focus on one aspect of Scrum whilst ignoring other aspects. For example, Kai shows the Scrum process drawing ... nowhere does he show the feedback loop which is designed to ensure that the process is producing value - that's exactly what the Demo, retrospective is all about.

      Picking off the top of the product backlog is all about picking the high value customer stuff in accordance with guidance from PO, Customer and/or stakeholder.
      Delivering working software early means you get to hear this feedback from users sooner, so you get value sooner.

      Scrum is all about delivering value.

      The Manifesto is more of a mission statement, to serve as a guidance away from traditional waterfall methods which generally force us into analysis paralysis mode.

      The second part of the blog, about the stories, well what are acceptance tests all about, definition of done criteria etc. This rant is selective hearing.

      Jack
      www.agilebuddy.com
      twitter.com/agilebuddy
      blog.agilebuddy.com

      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Sebastian" <paymentexpert@...> wrote:
      >
      > First I thought this would be the usual rant but there is more to it than I initially thought:
      >
      > http://gilb.com/blogpost111-7-truths-about-Agile-and-Scrum-that-people-don-t-want-to-hear-Part-0-of-7
      >
      > The goal is really to aid the user and not to produce working software. The latter is just a precondition, not the goal for the stakeholders such as the users of the software.
      >
      > Maybe Agile should step to the next level: From creating working software to create solutions that help the stakeholders meet their individual goals.
      >
      > What do you think?
      >
      > Sebastian K�beck
      >
    • Tim Ottinger
      ... Agreed, because it is obvious if you can limit Agile Software Development to as it is practiced or (more accurately) as I have seen it practiced , and
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 4, 2010
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        ----- Original Message ----
        > From: Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@...>

        > Frankly, I'm tired of people who tell me how Agile Software
        > Development is inadequate and needs to change.

        Agreed, because it is obvious if you can limit "Agile Software
        Development" to 'as it is practiced' or (more accurately) 'as I
        have seen it practiced', and not 'as it is evolving'.

        My biggest problem with most of the criticism and certification
        efforts is that it's just not that simple to say what it is.
        My "agile" is rather "xp" and growing continually more "lean",
        with some real interest in quality techniques and customer
        focus.

        Just wanted to drop you a +1 on your objection.

        tim
      • criesbeck
        I ve been teaching CS students and project managers (most without software backgrounds) Agile ideas for several years now, trying to meld the themes and
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 4, 2010
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          I've been teaching CS students and project managers (most without software backgrounds) Agile ideas for several years now, trying to meld the themes and principles I've seen as a lurker on this group since 2000, and a follower of XP discussions on comp.object.moderated before that.

          To me it's been blatantly obvious that the whole point was to deliver early client value. I start my spiels for PMs with three top goals any project process should have, in this order of importance:

          - a satisfied client
          - a happy productive team
          - a profitable business

          I did resonate very slightly with two points. One is that *students* often write stories of functional but not business value. I just tried my hand at a blog entry on this here:

          http://allcritiquesgreatandsmall.blogspot.com/2010/03/early-client-value-is-more-than-just.html

          And like the Gilbs, I get more insight out of the Agile Principles than the Agile Manifesto. But it's grasping at straws to say that that's putting value on page two.

          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Sebastian" <paymentexpert@...> wrote:
          >
          > First I thought this would be the usual rant but there is more to it than I initially thought:
          >
          > http://gilb.com/blogpost111-7-truths-about-Agile-and-Scrum-that-people-don-t-want-to-hear-Part-0-of-7
          >
          > The goal is really to aid the user and not to produce working software. The latter is just a precondition, not the goal for the stakeholders such as the users of the software.
          >
          > Maybe Agile should step to the next level: From creating working software to create solutions that help the stakeholders meet their individual goals.
          >
          > What do you think?
          >
          > Sebastian Kübeck
          >
        • Ilja Preuß
          OK, apparently you need to register with the site to be able to comment. Not sure I wanna do that. Cheers, Ilja
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 4, 2010
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            OK, apparently you need to register with the site to be able to
            comment. Not sure I wanna do that.

            Cheers, Ilja

            2010/3/3 Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@...>:
            > Interestingly, there *are* already comments posted. I contacted Kay on
            > twitter about it - perhaps we are missing something, or it's an
            > oversight. I will keep you posted.
            >
            > Cheers, Ilja
            >
            > 2010/3/3 Charlie Poole <cpoole@...>:
            >> Hi Dave,
            >>
            >>> On 03/03/2010 8:05 AM, Ilja Preuß wrote:
            >>> > As an aside, am I the only one who doesn't see how to add a
            >>> comment to
            >>> > that blog?
            >>> >
            >>>
            >>> Nope - I couldn't see a link either.
            >>
            >> This looks like blogging as a publishing mechanism - no feedback
            >> desired. It's an odd model for us, but some folks use it.
            >>
            >> It's somewhat amusing is that lack of understanding of feedback
            >> is evident in the text as well.
            >>
            >> Charlie
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
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            >
          • Tim Ottinger
            ... I think that s just another way to say Agile fails to promote my business model. Tim Ottinger http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 4, 2010
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              > However, "Agile has a FATAL flaw which is adressed by idea X which
              > I've been advocating" is a marketing tactic. Please give me idea X
              > without the faux-skeptic message.

              I think that's just another way to say "Agile fails to promote my
              business model."

              Tim Ottinger
              http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
              http://agileotter.blogspot.com/

              >
            • paul
              Clearly the author has difficulty understanding plain English. The only part of it that I thought had any merit whatsoever was the notion that agile is
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 9, 2010
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                Clearly the author has difficulty understanding plain English.

                The only part of it that I thought had any merit whatsoever was the notion that agile is "developer centric". Well so what ??, happy developers are productive developers.

                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Sebastian" <paymentexpert@...> wrote:
                >
                > First I thought this would be the usual rant but there is more to it than I initially thought:
                >
                > http://gilb.com/blogpost111-7-truths-about-Agile-and-Scrum-that-people-don-t-want-to-hear-Part-0-of-7
                >
                > The goal is really to aid the user and not to produce working software. The latter is just a precondition, not the goal for the stakeholders such as the users of the software.
                >
                > Maybe Agile should step to the next level: From creating working software to create solutions that help the stakeholders meet their individual goals.
                >
                > What do you think?
                >
                > Sebastian Kübeck
                >
              • Steve Ropa
                I honestly don t agree that agile is developer centric . In enables developers greatly , but the underlying message continues to be that we are developing
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 10, 2010
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                  I honestly don't agree that agile is "developer centric". In enables developers greatly , but the underlying message continues to be that we are developing the software that *provides business value*.

                  The other part of his rant that I just don't understand is his assertion that agile hampers creativity. How could a sentence on a card that starts a conversation about a feature possibly be more restrictive than a 30 page document with a list of "shalls" and "shall nots"?


                  From: paul
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 10:58 AM
                  To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [XP] Re: Kai Gilb: 7 truths about Agile and Scrum that people don't want to hear




                  Clearly the author has difficulty understanding plain English.

                  The only part of it that I thought had any merit whatsoever was the notion that agile is "developer centric". Well so what ??, happy developers are productive developers.

                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Sebastian" <paymentexpert@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > First I thought this would be the usual rant but there is more to it than I initially thought:
                  >
                  > http://gilb.com/blogpost111-7-truths-about-Agile-and-Scrum-that-people-don-t-want-to-hear-Part-0-of-7
                  >
                  > The goal is really to aid the user and not to produce working software. The latter is just a precondition, not the goal for the stakeholders such as the users of the software.
                  >
                  > Maybe Agile should step to the next level: From creating working software to create solutions that help the stakeholders meet their individual goals.
                  >
                  > What do you think?
                  >
                  > Sebastian Kübeck
                  >





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