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RE: [XP] Kai Gilb: 7 truths about Agile and Scrum that people don't want to hear

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  • Charlie Poole
    Hi Dave, ... This looks like blogging as a publishing mechanism - no feedback desired. It s an odd model for us, but some folks use it. It s somewhat amusing
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 3, 2010
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      Hi Dave,

      > On 03/03/2010 8:05 AM, Ilja Preuß wrote:
      > > As an aside, am I the only one who doesn't see how to add a
      > comment to
      > > that blog?
      > >
      >
      > Nope - I couldn't see a link either.

      This looks like blogging as a publishing mechanism - no feedback
      desired. It's an odd model for us, but some folks use it.

      It's somewhat amusing is that lack of understanding of feedback
      is evident in the text as well.

      Charlie
    • Ilja Preuß
      Interestingly, there *are* already comments posted. I contacted Kay on twitter about it - perhaps we are missing something, or it s an oversight. I will keep
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 3, 2010
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        Interestingly, there *are* already comments posted. I contacted Kay on
        twitter about it - perhaps we are missing something, or it's an
        oversight. I will keep you posted.

        Cheers, Ilja

        2010/3/3 Charlie Poole <cpoole@...>:
        > Hi Dave,
        >
        >> On 03/03/2010 8:05 AM, Ilja Preuß wrote:
        >> > As an aside, am I the only one who doesn't see how to add a
        >> comment to
        >> > that blog?
        >> >
        >>
        >> Nope - I couldn't see a link either.
        >
        > This looks like blogging as a publishing mechanism - no feedback
        > desired. It's an odd model for us, but some folks use it.
        >
        > It's somewhat amusing is that lack of understanding of feedback
        > is evident in the text as well.
        >
        > Charlie
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Ricardo Mayerhofer
        Jeff Patton talks about this subject in his presentation: http://agileproductdesign.com/downloads/patton_embrace_uncertainty_optimized.ppt
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 3, 2010
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          Jeff Patton talks about this subject in his presentation:
          http://agileproductdesign.com/downloads/patton_embrace_uncertainty_optimized.ppt

          Em 3/3/2010 10:35, Dave Rooney escreveu:
          > Well said, Laurent.
          >
          > I would actually agree with Kai to an extent if he were focusing on XP
          > or Scrum circa 2001. My experience is that User Stories alone that can
          > be completed in a single 1-3 week iteration/sprint are too granular to
          > describe a whole system.
          >
          > Indeed, this is where chartering come into play, as well as some of the
          > drill-down approaches such as Mike Cohn's Theme-Epic-Story or Jim
          > Highsmith's Capability-Feature-Story. Even in 2004ish Industrial XP had
          > Release Stories and Iteration Stories. It's these higher level
          > aggregations that describe the business value.
          >
          > A question for the community - Kai used the example User Story from the
          > Scrum Training Institute of "As a buyer, I want to place a book in the
          > shopping cart"
          > (http://scrumtraininginstitute.com/home/stream_download/scrumprimer on
          > page 8). What do you think of this as a story?
          >
          > My first impression is that there is no statement of the business value
          > using the "so that" clause. This is Kai's argument to an extent, and
          > something that I insist is included in Stories - if the Customer/Product
          > Owner can't say why they want something, then it probably shouldn't be
          > built!
          >
          > I'm also not terribly comfortable with "place a book in the shopping
          > cart". Kent, Ron, Chet& any others involved in C3 and early XP
          > projects, did you extend the System Metaphor to the text in the
          > stories? I do realize that the "As a<role>, I want to<action>, so
          > that<value>" format came later, but did you the Metaphor simply live in
          > the discussions and code, or did you use it in the Stories as well?
          >
          >
        • Sebastian
          Maybe he was talking about the ones at InfoQ... http://www.infoq.com/news/2010/03/serious-flaws-agile-scrum
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 3, 2010
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            Maybe he was talking about the ones at InfoQ...

            http://www.infoq.com/news/2010/03/serious-flaws-agile-scrum

            --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@...> wrote:
            >
            > Interestingly, there *are* already comments posted. I contacted Kay on
            > twitter about it - perhaps we are missing something, or it's an
            > oversight. I will keep you posted.
            >
            > Cheers, Ilja
            >
            > 2010/3/3 Charlie Poole <cpoole@...>:
            > > Hi Dave,
            > >
            > >> On 03/03/2010 8:05 AM, Ilja Preuß wrote:
            > >> > As an aside, am I the only one who doesn't see how to add a
            > >> comment to
            > >> > that blog?
            > >> >
            > >>
            > >> Nope - I couldn't see a link either.
            > >
            > > This looks like blogging as a publishing mechanism - no feedback
            > > desired. It's an odd model for us, but some folks use it.
            > >
            > > It's somewhat amusing is that lack of understanding of feedback
            > > is evident in the text as well.
            > >
            > > Charlie
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@...
            > >
            > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
            > >
            > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • JackM
            I read this post. It s easy to focus on one aspect of Scrum whilst ignoring other aspects. For example, Kai shows the Scrum process drawing ... nowhere does he
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 3, 2010
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              I read this post. It's easy to focus on one aspect of Scrum whilst ignoring other aspects. For example, Kai shows the Scrum process drawing ... nowhere does he show the feedback loop which is designed to ensure that the process is producing value - that's exactly what the Demo, retrospective is all about.

              Picking off the top of the product backlog is all about picking the high value customer stuff in accordance with guidance from PO, Customer and/or stakeholder.
              Delivering working software early means you get to hear this feedback from users sooner, so you get value sooner.

              Scrum is all about delivering value.

              The Manifesto is more of a mission statement, to serve as a guidance away from traditional waterfall methods which generally force us into analysis paralysis mode.

              The second part of the blog, about the stories, well what are acceptance tests all about, definition of done criteria etc. This rant is selective hearing.

              Jack
              www.agilebuddy.com
              twitter.com/agilebuddy
              blog.agilebuddy.com

              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Sebastian" <paymentexpert@...> wrote:
              >
              > First I thought this would be the usual rant but there is more to it than I initially thought:
              >
              > http://gilb.com/blogpost111-7-truths-about-Agile-and-Scrum-that-people-don-t-want-to-hear-Part-0-of-7
              >
              > The goal is really to aid the user and not to produce working software. The latter is just a precondition, not the goal for the stakeholders such as the users of the software.
              >
              > Maybe Agile should step to the next level: From creating working software to create solutions that help the stakeholders meet their individual goals.
              >
              > What do you think?
              >
              > Sebastian K�beck
              >
            • Tim Ottinger
              ... Agreed, because it is obvious if you can limit Agile Software Development to as it is practiced or (more accurately) as I have seen it practiced , and
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 4, 2010
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                ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@...>

                > Frankly, I'm tired of people who tell me how Agile Software
                > Development is inadequate and needs to change.

                Agreed, because it is obvious if you can limit "Agile Software
                Development" to 'as it is practiced' or (more accurately) 'as I
                have seen it practiced', and not 'as it is evolving'.

                My biggest problem with most of the criticism and certification
                efforts is that it's just not that simple to say what it is.
                My "agile" is rather "xp" and growing continually more "lean",
                with some real interest in quality techniques and customer
                focus.

                Just wanted to drop you a +1 on your objection.

                tim
              • criesbeck
                I ve been teaching CS students and project managers (most without software backgrounds) Agile ideas for several years now, trying to meld the themes and
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 4, 2010
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                  I've been teaching CS students and project managers (most without software backgrounds) Agile ideas for several years now, trying to meld the themes and principles I've seen as a lurker on this group since 2000, and a follower of XP discussions on comp.object.moderated before that.

                  To me it's been blatantly obvious that the whole point was to deliver early client value. I start my spiels for PMs with three top goals any project process should have, in this order of importance:

                  - a satisfied client
                  - a happy productive team
                  - a profitable business

                  I did resonate very slightly with two points. One is that *students* often write stories of functional but not business value. I just tried my hand at a blog entry on this here:

                  http://allcritiquesgreatandsmall.blogspot.com/2010/03/early-client-value-is-more-than-just.html

                  And like the Gilbs, I get more insight out of the Agile Principles than the Agile Manifesto. But it's grasping at straws to say that that's putting value on page two.

                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Sebastian" <paymentexpert@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > First I thought this would be the usual rant but there is more to it than I initially thought:
                  >
                  > http://gilb.com/blogpost111-7-truths-about-Agile-and-Scrum-that-people-don-t-want-to-hear-Part-0-of-7
                  >
                  > The goal is really to aid the user and not to produce working software. The latter is just a precondition, not the goal for the stakeholders such as the users of the software.
                  >
                  > Maybe Agile should step to the next level: From creating working software to create solutions that help the stakeholders meet their individual goals.
                  >
                  > What do you think?
                  >
                  > Sebastian Kübeck
                  >
                • Ilja Preuß
                  OK, apparently you need to register with the site to be able to comment. Not sure I wanna do that. Cheers, Ilja
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 4, 2010
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                    OK, apparently you need to register with the site to be able to
                    comment. Not sure I wanna do that.

                    Cheers, Ilja

                    2010/3/3 Ilja Preuß <iljapreuss@...>:
                    > Interestingly, there *are* already comments posted. I contacted Kay on
                    > twitter about it - perhaps we are missing something, or it's an
                    > oversight. I will keep you posted.
                    >
                    > Cheers, Ilja
                    >
                    > 2010/3/3 Charlie Poole <cpoole@...>:
                    >> Hi Dave,
                    >>
                    >>> On 03/03/2010 8:05 AM, Ilja Preuß wrote:
                    >>> > As an aside, am I the only one who doesn't see how to add a
                    >>> comment to
                    >>> > that blog?
                    >>> >
                    >>>
                    >>> Nope - I couldn't see a link either.
                    >>
                    >> This looks like blogging as a publishing mechanism - no feedback
                    >> desired. It's an odd model for us, but some folks use it.
                    >>
                    >> It's somewhat amusing is that lack of understanding of feedback
                    >> is evident in the text as well.
                    >>
                    >> Charlie
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming@...
                    >>
                    >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                    >>
                    >> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                  • Tim Ottinger
                    ... I think that s just another way to say Agile fails to promote my business model. Tim Ottinger http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 4, 2010
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                      > However, "Agile has a FATAL flaw which is adressed by idea X which
                      > I've been advocating" is a marketing tactic. Please give me idea X
                      > without the faux-skeptic message.

                      I think that's just another way to say "Agile fails to promote my
                      business model."

                      Tim Ottinger
                      http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                      http://agileotter.blogspot.com/

                      >
                    • paul
                      Clearly the author has difficulty understanding plain English. The only part of it that I thought had any merit whatsoever was the notion that agile is
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 9, 2010
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                        Clearly the author has difficulty understanding plain English.

                        The only part of it that I thought had any merit whatsoever was the notion that agile is "developer centric". Well so what ??, happy developers are productive developers.

                        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Sebastian" <paymentexpert@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > First I thought this would be the usual rant but there is more to it than I initially thought:
                        >
                        > http://gilb.com/blogpost111-7-truths-about-Agile-and-Scrum-that-people-don-t-want-to-hear-Part-0-of-7
                        >
                        > The goal is really to aid the user and not to produce working software. The latter is just a precondition, not the goal for the stakeholders such as the users of the software.
                        >
                        > Maybe Agile should step to the next level: From creating working software to create solutions that help the stakeholders meet their individual goals.
                        >
                        > What do you think?
                        >
                        > Sebastian Kübeck
                        >
                      • Steve Ropa
                        I honestly don t agree that agile is developer centric . In enables developers greatly , but the underlying message continues to be that we are developing
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 10, 2010
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                          I honestly don't agree that agile is "developer centric". In enables developers greatly , but the underlying message continues to be that we are developing the software that *provides business value*.

                          The other part of his rant that I just don't understand is his assertion that agile hampers creativity. How could a sentence on a card that starts a conversation about a feature possibly be more restrictive than a 30 page document with a list of "shalls" and "shall nots"?


                          From: paul
                          Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 10:58 AM
                          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [XP] Re: Kai Gilb: 7 truths about Agile and Scrum that people don't want to hear




                          Clearly the author has difficulty understanding plain English.

                          The only part of it that I thought had any merit whatsoever was the notion that agile is "developer centric". Well so what ??, happy developers are productive developers.

                          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Sebastian" <paymentexpert@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > First I thought this would be the usual rant but there is more to it than I initially thought:
                          >
                          > http://gilb.com/blogpost111-7-truths-about-Agile-and-Scrum-that-people-don-t-want-to-hear-Part-0-of-7
                          >
                          > The goal is really to aid the user and not to produce working software. The latter is just a precondition, not the goal for the stakeholders such as the users of the software.
                          >
                          > Maybe Agile should step to the next level: From creating working software to create solutions that help the stakeholders meet their individual goals.
                          >
                          > What do you think?
                          >
                          > Sebastian Kübeck
                          >





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