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Re: [XP] XP Developers versus Scrum Developers

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  • Francesco Cirillo
    Dear Laurent, (nice writing to you again) There s an interesting idea lurking in there, which is can a team get the full benefit of Scrum, whatever that is,
    Message 1 of 51 , Oct 1 4:34 AM
      Dear Laurent,

      (nice writing to you again)

      There's an interesting idea lurking in there, which is "can a team get
      the full benefit of Scrum, whatever that is, while not using any XP
      practices". It needs refining but it's an interesting line of inquiry.

      Since Scrum - by construction - is not a software development process
      (meaning it doesn't propose an inner software development process made up of
      technical principles and practices) I would say that:

      -a-> Scrum by itself cannot lead a software development team to succeed its
      project without using (injecting) an external technical method.
      -b-> Scrum + [some software engineering method] can be successful in
      delivering software successfully. Examples:
      * Scrum + [Unified Process]
      * Scrum + [XP]

      In other terms Scrum + [Scrum] should simply not exist. Scrum doesn't tell
      anything about how to build software (I was told this thing so many times by
      eminent Scrum luminiaries when asking questions about the robustness of

      Francesco further quotes you saying that all this relates somehow to a
      "Certified Scrum Developer" program. This seems like a bit of a non
      sequitur to me. Certifying people doesn't change what practices they
      use, make them any better, or otherwise influence the outcome of their
      current projects. Francesco rightly notes that the collection of
      practices usually referred to as "Scrum" includes no technical
      practices, so I can see how the notion of such a program might be a
      puzzle in and of itself, something to investigate, perhaps by asking
      the Scrum Alliance to communicate the intent of that initiative more

      Why not?

      Francesco then asked, "Shouldn't they just look for XP Developers?",
      and that made no sense. Who is "they" supposed to refer to ? Scrum
      teams ? Ken ? Jeff ? Scrum Alliance ?" You responded with "they seem
      to want to have it all in their own little world". Which "they" did
      you mean ? What is that last remark supposed to even *mean* ? That
      doesn't sound like investigating anything to me - at best it sounds
      confusing. And in my experience, when we start using "they" with a
      vague referent, we're on the way to identifying an Enemy and bashing.

      they = Ken + Jeff in the first place and also all Scrum teams involved in
      software development.

      Laurent, I'll try to simplify my thought (thanks to Ron's post):
      -1-> Ken and Jeff are authors of Scrum
      -2-> Scrum by itself has no technical practice/principle - Or if you prefer:
      there is no autonomous Scrum software development method.
      -3-> Ken and Jeff noticed that when Scrum team apply XP as their software
      development process/practices they mostly succeeded.


      let they = Ken + Jeff

      -?1-> Why did they decide to create a Scrum Developer profile/certification?
      -?2-> Shouldn't they just look for XP Developers since they are so
      -?3-> Will Scrum Developers apply XP Developers' practices and principles
      since they found them so successful? If so why should they use the term:
      Scrum Developer? Couldn't they just emphasize the role of XP Developers?
      -?4-> Why did they create a different institution/company scrum.org, instead
      of keeping their work in the Scrum Alliance, to propose courses and
      certification based upon this Scrum Developer profile.

      I hope I made myself clear now.

      I would like to understand these points



      Dott. Francesco Cirillo
      CEO XPLabs SRL - metodiagili.it

      skype: francesco-cirillo

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • D. AndrĂ© Dhondt
      ... There are a lot of average developers out there that don t know how to find a good job, and a lot of them that don t have sufficient means to be very
      Message 51 of 51 , Oct 2 10:36 AM
        On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
        >why one would want to appear hireable to people who don't know
        >how to hire is an open question

        There are a lot of average developers out there that don't know how to find
        a good job, and a lot of them that don't have sufficient means to be very
        picky. They'll take what the recruiter finds for them.

        >>Maybe WeVouchFor.org...
        >Seemed like a good idea but has not caught on in
        >any very impressive way.

        As I understand it, the site was a spike, that proved the project would be
        very expensive to run, and so the project was stopped.

        D. André Dhondt
        mobile: 001 33 671 034 984

        Support low-cost conferences -- http://agiletour.org/
        If you're in the area, join Agile Philly http://www.AgilePhilly.com

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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