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Re: [XP] Re: iterations vs continuous flow and kanban ...

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  • Ron Jeffries
    Hello, Joshua. On Monday, August 3, 2009, at 1:30:15 PM, you ... Perhaps it helps. I m not coming out against marketing. I m all for it and wish I were good
    Message 1 of 187 , Aug 3, 2009
      Hello, Joshua. On Monday, August 3, 2009, at 1:30:15 PM, you
      wrote:

      > On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 6:55 AM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

      >> On the one hand, there is at least one consulting organization that
      >> has rather obviously decided to trash existing practice as both
      >> based on incorrect theory as well as rejecting theory altogether, as
      >> well as relying way too much on actually doing things rather than
      >> understanding the theory behind things. This one is somewhat
      >> pathetic, but it's fair to say that in the desire to distinguish
      >> one's offering from the next person, you've got to do something. One
      >> possibility is to be the person who has all the new stuff: Lean,
      >> Kanban, Nuclear Adaptive Psychobabble, whatever. I guess there's a
      >> good chance this works better than being the umteenth "Agile" person
      >> on the block.

      > Aren't you a CST Ron and doesn't that help you distinguish and market
      > yourself? Is this the pot calling the kettle black?

      Perhaps it helps. I'm not coming out against marketing. I'm all for
      it and wish I were good at it. I do not see the need, however, to
      trash existing practice, existing methods, and existing teachers. It
      is that practice which I object to.

      > I'm on this list and Kanbandev and while I'm usually too busy to
      > participate, I do read the emails. I don't think the company you're
      > describing is trashing existing practice. They have found what they think
      > is a language and theory in Lean/Kanban that is helping them make sense of
      > things, which in turn is helping their company help others.

      I'm all for presenting new language and theory, as I hope is clear
      in what remains below. I do not see the need to begin most every
      such bit of language with language that tears down individuals and
      named methods, and practitioners.

      >> On the other hand, I think there is great value in viewing the
      >> universe through different lenses, and there is absolutely no reason
      >> to imagine that XP or Scrum or "Agile" are at the absolute pinnacle
      >> of meaning and understanding.

      > Kanban has opened up a lot of useful ideas. Also, as Karl mentioned, we
      > don't have books on Kanban yet -- they are coming. In my own experience
      > (doing something like Kanban for 2+ years now), there's a lot of great stuff
      > in there. David Andersen is actively working on a book and based on what
      > I've seen in his tutorials, I think it will have a big impact.

      It may well. I rather hope it does. My expectations are that it will
      turn out to be yet another way, not terribly different from the ways
      that are out there. A nice simplification, almost certainly, and one
      that I expect will be found to have holes in it needing filling in,
      as most methods have.

      >> That's why I brought the kanban topic over here, where we are not
      >> afraid to talk about things, and where we trash all ideas
      >> equally, including our own.

      > This is a great list, probably my favorite. Kanbandev is newer and has
      > great people on it. I think it is shaping up to be a great list. I don't
      > care for moderation unless it is to avoid spam or totally oddball posts.

      Yes. I think the direct discouragement of posting unless one has
      done kanban is a bit off as well.

      >> I think we can probably learn some things from looking from all
      >> sides.

      > Agreed.

      :) Good!

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      www.xprogramming.com/blog
      Assume that anything you didn't like was the funny stuff.
      -- Jim Shore
    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello, davenicolette. On Monday, August 10, 2009, at 7:52:58 PM, ... Yep! Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com www.xprogramming.com/blog Accroche toi a ton reve.
      Message 187 of 187 , Aug 10, 2009
        Hello, davenicolette. On Monday, August 10, 2009, at 7:52:58 PM,
        you wrote:

        >> Seems to me this is a quite valid thing to do, but that it's still
        >> managing scope.

        > That's fine. I don't want to get into a circular debate about
        > words. The key thing IMO is that we understand how to work with
        > that type of trade-off to the customer's benefit.

        Yep!

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        www.xprogramming.com/blog
        Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
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