Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Preparing XP for the big projects

Expand Messages
  • zdnfa
    Dear all, i want to share with you the idea of my PhD. research the idea is that Kent Beck says that XP works fine for projects of 10 to 20 programmers, but
    Message 1 of 30 , Jul 2, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear all,

      i want to share with you the idea of my PhD. research

      the idea is that Kent Beck says that XP works fine for projects of 10 to 20 programmers, but not for the big ones.

      our research is that some modifications on XP may well make it fine with big ones. these modifications are as follows:

      1. XP focuses on tacit knowledge sharing but on explicit, we need to increse our focus on explicit knowledge by increasing the amount of documentation but rationally.

      2. if we add an analysis phase per iteration we increase the amount of explicit knowledge sharing with customers.

      3. we introduce the concept of pair development over instead of pair programming, that is instead of doing the programming in pairs, we do the analysis, design, and coding in pairs.

      can i hear from you your point of view on these points.

      thanks

      zaidoun alzoabi
    • Chet Hendrickson
      Hello Zaidoun, When you say research, do you mean that you have found a statistically significant difference in the success rates of large teams that are doing
      Message 2 of 30 , Jul 3, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Zaidoun,

        When you say research, do you mean that you have found a statistically
        significant difference in the success rates of large teams that are
        doing the three practices you mention than those not?

        I would like to hear more about the analysis phase you mention as
        well. Do you mean a fixed period of time during which analysis for
        all stories planned for the iteration takes place? If so, I would
        argue that a team doing that will have drifted pretty far from my
        understanding of XP.

        chet

        Thursday, July 2, 2009, 11:48:34 PM, you wrote:

        > Dear all,

        > i want to share with you the idea of my PhD. research

        > the idea is that Kent Beck says that XP works fine for projects of
        > 10 to 20 programmers, but not for the big ones.

        > our research is that some modifications on XP may well make it fine
        > with big ones. these modifications are as follows:

        > 1. XP focuses on tacit knowledge sharing but on explicit, we need
        > to increse our focus on explicit knowledge by increasing the amount of documentation but rationally.

        > 2. if we add an analysis phase per iteration we increase the amount
        > of explicit knowledge sharing with customers.

        > 3. we introduce the concept of pair development over instead of
        > pair programming, that is instead of doing the programming in pairs,
        > we do the analysis, design, and coding in pairs.

        > can i hear from you your point of view on these points.

        > thanks

        > zaidoun alzoabi




        --
        Best regards,
        Chet Hendrickson mailto:lists@...
        Check out our upcoming CSM Plus courses @
        http://hendricksonxp.com/index.php?option=com_eventlist&Itemid=28
      • Ron Jeffries
        Hello, zaidoun. My biggest and first question is to understand the extent to which you and your colleagues have actually done XP as it exists. Some smaller
        Message 3 of 30 , Jul 3, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello, zaidoun.

          My biggest and first question is to understand the extent to which
          you and your colleagues have actually done XP as it exists.

          Some smaller items below:

          On Thursday, July 2, 2009, at 11:48:34 PM, you wrote:

          > our research is that some modifications on XP may well make it
          > fine with big ones. these modifications are as follows:

          > 1. XP focuses on tacit knowledge sharing but on explicit, we need
          > to increse our focus on explicit knowledge by increasing the
          > amount of documentation but rationally.

          So when you refer to "explicit knowledge", I take it you are
          referring not to things that people know, but to things that are
          written down?

          > 2. if we add an analysis phase per iteration we increase the
          > amount of explicit knowledge sharing with customers.

          How would that improve the knowledge situation compared to having
          the developers and customers actually communicating directly,
          writing down what they want to? (That is what already happens.)

          > 3. we introduce the concept of pair development over instead of
          > pair programming, that is instead of doing the programming in
          > pairs, we do the analysis, design, and coding in pairs.

          I think that programming = analysis+design+coding. Therefore I see
          no difference between what you are calling pair development and what
          we call pair programming. What am I missing?

          Regards,

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          www.xprogramming.com/blog
          That's my opinion and I agree with it. -- Julio Santos
        • Steven Gordon
          PhD research should go beyond what has already been done. How would your research surpass Balancing Agility and Discipline By Barry W Boehm, Richard Turner?
          Message 4 of 30 , Jul 3, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            PhD research should go beyond what has already been done. How would
            your research surpass Balancing Agility and Discipline By Barry W
            Boehm, Richard Turner?

            http://books.google.com/books?&id=MWhXwkHsS0gC&oi=fnd&pg=PR15&dq=%22Boehm%22+%22Balancing+agility+and+discipline:+A+guide+for+the+perplexed%22

            http://www.fsktm.upm.edu.my/~rodziah/sak5108/p44-beck.pdf

            How would you go about establishing that these changes actually
            improve the value and quality of software produced by large teams in
            practice?

            Steven Gordon, PhD

            On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:48 PM, zdnfa<zdnfa@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Dear all,
            >
            > i want to share with you the idea of my PhD. research
            >
            > the idea is that Kent Beck says that XP works fine for projects of 10 to 20
            > programmers, but not for the big ones.
            >
            > our research is that some modifications on XP may well make it fine with big
            > ones. these modifications are as follows:
            >
            > 1. XP focuses on tacit knowledge sharing but on explicit, we need to increse
            > our focus on explicit knowledge by increasing the amount of documentation
            > but rationally.
            >
            > 2. if we add an analysis phase per iteration we increase the amount of
            > explicit knowledge sharing with customers.
            >
            > 3. we introduce the concept of pair development over instead of pair
            > programming, that is instead of doing the programming in pairs, we do the
            > analysis, design, and coding in pairs.
            >
            > can i hear from you your point of view on these points.
            >
            > thanks
            >
            > zaidoun alzoabi
            >
          • Tim Ottinger
            The reason for small teams is because communication breaks down as teams size up. In other words communication is maximized by intentionally keeping team size
            Message 5 of 30 , Jul 3, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              The reason for small teams is because communication breaks down as
              teams size up. In other words communication is maximized by
              intentionally keeping team size small. I'm not sure why you would want to size up the teams. It leaves me a little puzzled.

              I would love for you to show us a new balance of written and oral communication using old (paper, word, CASE) or new (blogs, wikis, mail, social nets) tech so well that we don't need small team size in order to maintain rich, full communication bandwidth and can still get immediate answers to our questions and concerns.

              If you have the right idea, then you will have made a contribution to the field. We will all have learned something useful. We might even suffer small degradations of individual pair productivity if they led to compensatory whole-team productivity. It's all cost/benefit, I guess, but you can be assured that all Pareto improvements are welcome.

              If your idea does not work (ie, a return to document management in place of development, wasteful phase-boundary ceremonies, higher overhead, decrease in running tested features per iteration) then you will have confirmed something that we believed all along.

              There is NO downside to you doing this work.

              Godspeed.

              Tim Ottinger
              http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
              http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
            • Steven Gordon
              ... No downside for us, maybe. However, they do not grant PhDs for confirming something that is generally believed, especially if the basis of that
              Message 6 of 30 , Jul 3, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Tim Ottinger<linux_tim@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > The reason for small teams is because communication breaks down as
                > teams size up. In other words communication is maximized by
                > intentionally keeping team size small. I'm not sure why you would want to
                > size up the teams. It leaves me a little puzzled.
                >
                > I would love for you to show us a new balance of written and oral
                > communication using old (paper, word, CASE) or new (blogs, wikis, mail,
                > social nets) tech so well that we don't need small team size in order to
                > maintain rich, full communication bandwidth and can still get immediate
                > answers to our questions and concerns.
                >
                > If you have the right idea, then you will have made a contribution to the
                > field. We will all have learned something useful. We might even suffer small
                > degradations of individual pair productivity if they led to compensatory
                > whole-team productivity. It's all cost/benefit, I guess, but you can be
                > assured that all Pareto improvements are welcome.
                >
                > If your idea does not work (ie, a return to document management in place of
                > development, wasteful phase-boundary ceremonies, higher overhead, decrease
                > in running tested features per iteration) then you will have confirmed
                > something that we believed all along.
                >
                > There is NO downside to you doing this work.

                No downside for us, maybe. However, they do not grant PhDs for
                confirming something that is generally believed, especially if the
                basis of that confirmation is just one idea that did not work.

                >
                > Godspeed.
                >
                > Tim Ottinger
                > http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                > http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
                >
              • zaidoun alzoabi
                    Dear all, thanks for your reply   your questions could be answered through reading this article
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 3, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                   
                   
                  Dear all,
                  thanks for your reply
                   
                  your questions could be answered through reading this article www.ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/4520396/4529902/04530347.pdf
                   
                  but for te time I will answer your main questions;
                   

                  We have used XP in a big project that intended to computerize the tax autority processes in Syria. The system is considered very complex due to the many laws, regulations, decrees, and procedures used.
                  we had to modify the lifecycle of XP in order to deal with the complexity of the system, this happened through adding a clear analysis phase before any release, and breaking the system into smaller modules each taken by pair developers.
                  in the analysis phase we used formal meeting sessions with tax experts and managers and we used DFD and ERD to communicate with them.
                  These people did not have time to communicate with us on frequent basis and in many cases they had conflicting ideas, this why we needed formal communication with them.
                  pair development is different from pair programming as the pair here will not only sit at the same computer and do the coding, our pair will do the analysis for their module, desing the solution, integrate with the design of other pairs modules and then do the coding development=analysis+desing+programming+testing
                  the research goes beyond Boehm and Turner "balancing Agility with Discipline" by saying how to do that in reality, and that too by focusing on Nonake spiral knowledge sharing model SECI 
                  best regards




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • zdnfa
                  Dear all, thanks for your reply your questions could be answered through reading this article www.ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/4520396/4529902/04530347.pdf but for
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jul 3, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear all,
                    thanks for your reply

                    your questions could be answered through reading this article www.ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/4520396/4529902/04530347.pdf

                    but for te time I will answer your main questions;

                    1. We have used XP in a big project that intended to computerize the tax autority processes in Syria. The system is considered very complex due to the many laws, regulations, decrees, and procedures used.
                    2. we had to modify the lifecycle of XP in order to deal with the complexity of the system, this happened through adding a clear analysis phase before any release, and breaking the system into smaller modules each taken by pair developers.
                    in the analysis phase we used formal meeting sessions with tax experts and managers and we used DFD and ERD to communicate with them.
                    3. These people did not have time to communicate with us on frequent basis and in many cases they had conflicting ideas, this why we needed formal communication with them.

                    4. pair development is different from pair programming as the pair here will not only sit at the same computer and do the coding, our pair will do the analysis for their module, desing the solution, integrate with the design of other pairs modules and then do the coding development=analysis+desing+programming+testing

                    5. the research goes beyond Boehm and Turner "balancing Agility with Discipline" by saying how to do that in reality, and that too by focusing on Nonake spiral knowledge sharing model SECI
                    best regards
                  • Slava Imeshev
                    Along the same lines, to what area of knowledge would a work on Ph.D. thesis on XP improvement belong? Psychology? Business administration? Regards, Slava
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jul 3, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Along the same lines, to what area of knowledge
                      would a work on Ph.D. thesis on XP improvement
                      belong? Psychology? Business administration?

                      Regards,

                      Slava Imeshev
                    • Adam Sroka
                      ... 10-20 programmers is /huge/. In my experience XP teams are successful with far fewer. ... Why? Why would you want your team to be bigger than that? What
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jul 3, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:48 PM, zdnfa<zdnfa@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear all,
                        >
                        > i want to share with you the idea of my PhD. research
                        >
                        > the idea is that Kent Beck says that XP works fine for projects of 10 to 20
                        > programmers, but not for the big ones.
                        >

                        10-20 programmers is /huge/. In my experience XP teams are successful
                        with far fewer.

                        > our research is that some modifications on XP may well make it fine with big
                        > ones. these modifications are as follows:
                        >

                        Why? Why would you want your team to be bigger than that? What
                        advantage does having a large team provide?

                        > 1. XP focuses on tacit knowledge sharing but on explicit, we need to increse
                        > our focus on explicit knowledge by increasing the amount of documentation
                        > but rationally.
                        >

                        Is running code with tests a form of "explicit knowledge?" Might we
                        perhaps be more successful with more of that rather than more
                        documentation (rational or otherwise?)

                        > 2. if we add an analysis phase per iteration we increase the amount of
                        > explicit knowledge sharing with customers.
                        >

                        We analyze continuously. How would separating analysis from other
                        day-to-day activities give us any advantage?

                        > 3. we introduce the concept of pair development over instead of pair
                        > programming, that is instead of doing the programming in pairs, we do the
                        > analysis, design, and coding in pairs.
                        >

                        We already do this. Analysis, design, and coding are all part of the
                        existing pair programming/TDD paradigm.
                      • Adam Sroka
                        ... I m not currently a member of IEEE, and I m not inclined to pay to read this. However, I wanted to point out that your abstract is incorrect. The
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jul 4, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 8:53 PM, zdnfa<zdnfa@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear all,
                          > thanks for your reply
                          >
                          > your questions could be answered through reading this article
                          > www.ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/4520396/4529902/04530347.pdf
                          >

                          I'm not currently a member of IEEE, and I'm not inclined to pay to
                          read this. However, I wanted to point out that your abstract is
                          incorrect. The statement, "agile methods suffer from the lack of
                          disciplined planning" shows a lack of fundamental understanding of the
                          XP approach. Also, XP is neither the oldest nor the most well known of
                          the Agile methods. At least Scrum and FDD predate XP, and Scrum is
                          more widely adopted and understood. Further, you stated that your
                          intent was to extend XP beyond the limit of "ten to twenty developers"
                          and yet your study only used eleven.
                        • Steven Gordon
                          ... Every project encounters obstacles. In the vast majority of cases, the obstacles can be cleared given determination, courage and organizational support
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jul 4, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 8:49 PM, zaidoun alzoabi<zdnfa@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear all,
                            > thanks for your reply
                            >
                            > your questions could be answered through reading this article
                            > www.ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/4520396/4529902/04530347.pdf
                            >
                            > but for te time I will answer your main questions;
                            >
                            >
                            > We have used XP in a big project that intended to computerize the tax
                            > autority processes in Syria. The system is considered very complex due to
                            > the many laws, regulations, decrees, and procedures used.
                            > we had to modify the lifecycle of XP in order to deal with the complexity of
                            > the system, this happened through adding a clear analysis phase before any
                            > release, and breaking the system into smaller modules each taken by pair
                            > developers.

                            Every project encounters obstacles. In the vast majority of cases,
                            the obstacles can be cleared given determination, courage and
                            organizational support (and sometimes small adaptations of the
                            methodology). In a few cases, the team may have to make major changes
                            to their methodology instead.

                            Just because one particular team in one particular circumstance did
                            not have the determination, courage and organizational support to make
                            XP work does not necessarily mean XP could not have been made to work.
                            If you had brought in an experienced XP consultant who was unable to
                            find a way to make XP work, then maybe there would be some credibility
                            to your premise.

                            Did the team deliver working software periodically to these "tax
                            experts and managers" for feedback and use that feedback to improve
                            the software and the shared understanding of the requirements (and
                            even modify future requirements or their relative priority)? If so,
                            how frequently did this feedback loop occur. If this feedback loop
                            did not occur monthly at the very least, then the team did not do a
                            modified form of XP or even Agile, but instead just gave up and
                            reverted to Waterfall when they encountered resistance.

                            That waterfall can work a little better when the phases are done by
                            pairs working together would not be a surprising result to the Agile
                            world, but maybe the Waterfall community would find it significant.
                          • Tim Ottinger
                            Tim Ottinger http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/ http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jul 4, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Tim Ottinger
                              http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                              http://agileotter.blogspot.com/



                              ----- Original Message ----
                              > From: Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...>
                              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 1:53:47 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [XP] Preparing XP for the big projects
                              >
                              > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:48 PM, zdnfawrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Dear all,
                              > >
                              > > i want to share with you the idea of my PhD. research
                              > >
                              > > the idea is that Kent Beck says that XP works fine for projects of 10 to 20
                              > > programmers, but not for the big ones.
                              > >
                              >
                              > 10-20 programmers is /huge/. In my experience XP teams are successful
                              > with far fewer.
                              >
                              > > our research is that some modifications on XP may well make it fine with big
                              > > ones. these modifications are as follows:
                              > >
                              >
                              > Why? Why would you want your team to be bigger than that? What
                              > advantage does having a large team provide?
                              >
                              > > 1. XP focuses on tacit knowledge sharing but on explicit, we need to increse
                              > > our focus on explicit knowledge by increasing the amount of documentation
                              > > but rationally.
                              > >
                              >
                              > Is running code with tests a form of "explicit knowledge?" Might we
                              > perhaps be more successful with more of that rather than more
                              > documentation (rational or otherwise?)
                              >
                              > > 2. if we add an analysis phase per iteration we increase the amount of
                              > > explicit knowledge sharing with customers.
                              > >
                              >
                              > We analyze continuously. How would separating analysis from other
                              > day-to-day activities give us any advantage?
                              >
                              > > 3. we introduce the concept of pair development over instead of pair
                              > > programming, that is instead of doing the programming in pairs, we do the
                              > > analysis, design, and coding in pairs.
                              > >
                              >
                              > We already do this. Analysis, design, and coding are all part of the
                              > existing pair programming/TDD paradigm.
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                              >
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                              >
                              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Phlip
                              ... How about you locate the 10 biggest, most successful projects you can, and then study what they actually did? Not what ideology they worshiped! ... Look at
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jul 5, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                zdnfa wrote:

                                > the idea is that Kent Beck says that XP works fine for projects of 10 to 20 programmers, but not for the big ones.

                                How about you locate the 10 biggest, most successful projects you can, and then
                                study what they actually did? Not what ideology they worshiped!

                                > 1. XP focuses on tacit knowledge sharing but on explicit, we need to increse our focus on explicit knowledge by increasing the amount of documentation but rationally.

                                Look at online repositories like GitHub. They share a huge amount of data, all
                                of them implicitly, with minimal documentation. This does not always work
                                perfectly - like anything in Open Source land - but when it does the results are
                                amazing.

                                > 2. if we add an analysis phase per iteration we increase the amount of explicit knowledge sharing with customers.

                                Why would spending a period of time guessing what the technical architecture
                                will be improve the knowledge sharing on the business side? Seems to me that
                                standardizing the storytests, like Cucumber does, would be more useful.

                                > 3. we introduce the concept of pair development over instead of pair programming, that is instead of doing the programming in pairs, we do the analysis, design, and coding in pairs.

                                The problem with that is pair programming without TDD and emergent design is
                                very painful. This is why most knowledge-work always was - and still is - from a
                                desk built for one.

                                Imagine, for example, pair Googling. One pair want to click on one citation,
                                while another pair wants to click on another. The friction simply is not worth
                                the slight benefit in synergy. The pair might as well Google for overlapping
                                topics, from two workstations, and then merge their findings!

                                > can i hear from you your point of view on these points.

                                Please do not go here:

                                http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BigAgileUpFront

                                --
                                Phlip
                                http://twitter.com/Pen_Bird
                              • kentb
                                Dear Zaidoun, It sounds like you made a sensible local adaptation of XP for your situation. That s what XPers do. The question of whether those adaptations are
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jul 5, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Zaidoun,

                                  It sounds like you made a sensible local adaptation of XP for your
                                  situation. That's what XPers do. The question of whether those adaptations
                                  are more generally applicable is worth careful study. Please keep me
                                  apprised of your progress.

                                  Regards,

                                  Kent Beck
                                  Three Rivers Institute

                                  _____

                                  From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of zaidoun alzoabi
                                  Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:49 PM
                                  To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [good] [XP] Preparing XP for the big projects







                                  Dear all,
                                  thanks for your reply

                                  your questions could be answered through reading this article
                                  www.ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/4520396/4529902/04530347.pdf

                                  but for te time I will answer your main questions;


                                  We have used XP in a big project that intended to computerize the tax
                                  autority processes in Syria. The system is considered very complex due to
                                  the many laws, regulations, decrees, and procedures used.
                                  we had to modify the lifecycle of XP in order to deal with the complexity of
                                  the system, this happened through adding a clear analysis phase before any
                                  release, and breaking the system into smaller modules each taken by pair
                                  developers.
                                  in the analysis phase we used formal meeting sessions with tax experts and
                                  managers and we used DFD and ERD to communicate with them.
                                  These people did not have time to communicate with us on frequent basis and
                                  in many cases they had conflicting ideas, this why we needed formal
                                  communication with them.
                                  pair development is different from pair programming as the pair here will
                                  not only sit at the same computer and do the coding, our pair will do the
                                  analysis for their module, desing the solution, integrate with the design of
                                  other pairs modules and then do the coding
                                  development=analysis+desing+programming+testing
                                  the research goes beyond Boehm and Turner "balancing Agility with
                                  Discipline" by saying how to do that in reality, and that too by focusing on
                                  Nonake spiral knowledge sharing model SECI
                                  best regards

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Adam Sroka
                                  Always an optimist. I love that. Whenever someone says to me, The way you described turned out to be sub-optimal. So I modified it. And then in the course of
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jul 5, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Always an optimist. I love that.

                                    Whenever someone says to me, "The way you described turned out to be
                                    sub-optimal. So I modified it." And then in the course of discussion
                                    they say things that make me suspect it is possible that they hadn't
                                    fully understood or adopted my suggestions, I am concerned that the
                                    adaptations are not local optimizations but simply a substitution for
                                    missing skills/knowledge needed to do it the way that was suggested.

                                    If that is the case it is okay. However, we are also talking about
                                    academic research (And, as Steven pointed out PhD level research is
                                    supposed to be on the cutting edge - moving the state of knowledge
                                    forward.) I think that it is even more important in an academic
                                    context to fully grok a concept before you attempt to change it.

                                    I'm also a little weary of what direction "forward" is in this
                                    context. Creating something more RUP-like is not "forward" in my
                                    humble opinion. I worked for a guy who claimed to be doing a blend of
                                    Scrum and RUP, but what he was really doing was failing to understand
                                    Scrum at all and just doing an iterative sort of RUP (WIth daily
                                    meetings where we had to listen to him talk for half-an-hour.) That's
                                    fine, until you start selling it to others as some sort of "improved
                                    Scrum" when you've yet to actually try what Scrum suggests.

                                    On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 10:03 PM, kentb<kentb@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Dear Zaidoun,
                                    >
                                    > It sounds like you made a sensible local adaptation of XP for your
                                    > situation. That's what XPers do. The question of whether those adaptations
                                    > are more generally applicable is worth careful study. Please keep me
                                    > apprised of your progress.
                                    >
                                    > Regards,
                                    >
                                    > Kent Beck
                                    > Three Rivers Institute
                                    >
                                    > _____
                                    >
                                    > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of zaidoun alzoabi
                                    > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:49 PM
                                    > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [good] [XP] Preparing XP for the big projects
                                    >
                                    > Dear all,
                                    > thanks for your reply
                                    >
                                    > your questions could be answered through reading this article
                                    > www.ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/4520396/4529902/04530347.pdf
                                    >
                                    > but for te time I will answer your main questions;
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > We have used XP in a big project that intended to computerize the tax
                                    > autority processes in Syria. The system is considered very complex due to
                                    > the many laws, regulations, decrees, and procedures used.
                                    > we had to modify the lifecycle of XP in order to deal with the complexity of
                                    > the system, this happened through adding a clear analysis phase before any
                                    > release, and breaking the system into smaller modules each taken by pair
                                    > developers.
                                    > in the analysis phase we used formal meeting sessions with tax experts and
                                    > managers and we used DFD and ERD to communicate with them.
                                    > These people did not have time to communicate with us on frequent basis and
                                    > in many cases they had conflicting ideas, this why we needed formal
                                    > communication with them.
                                    > pair development is different from pair programming as the pair here will
                                    > not only sit at the same computer and do the coding, our pair will do the
                                    > analysis for their module, desing the solution, integrate with the design of
                                    > other pairs modules and then do the coding
                                    > development=analysis+desing+programming+testing
                                    > the research goes beyond Boehm and Turner "balancing Agility with
                                    > Discipline" by saying how to do that in reality, and that too by focusing on
                                    > Nonake spiral knowledge sharing model SECI
                                    > best regards
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • kentb
                                    Dear Adam, I ve been working on a way to respond positively to your message below. I hope I have it. What I appreciate about the work Zaidoun is doing is that
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jul 13, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear Adam,

                                      I've been working on a way to respond positively to your message below. I
                                      hope I have it.

                                      What I appreciate about the work Zaidoun is doing is that it takes XP into a
                                      context unlike the one in which XP was created (government development) and
                                      blends ideas from a familiar development style with what is new about XP. I
                                      trust that he and his colleagues will evolve from the style they have now
                                      based on their experiences, much as I hope to evolve my style.

                                      What I heard in the responses to his query was, "You haven't earned all the
                                      merit badges. Don't even bother talking to us until you have." I think
                                      responses of that form discourage new ideas and participants to XP.

                                      I wish the community here was more accepting and encouraging. I can't force
                                      that to happen so I do what I can to accept and encourage. I don't think
                                      that makes me an "optimist" (which it sounds like you mean as a pejorative,
                                      strangely enough), just someone who is curious about what the other 15
                                      million programmers on the planet are thinking about.

                                      Regards,

                                      Kent Beck
                                      Three Rivers Institute

                                      _____

                                      From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Sroka
                                      Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 11:38 PM
                                      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [good] [XP] Preparing XP for the big projects





                                      Always an optimist. I love that.

                                      Whenever someone says to me, "The way you described turned out to be
                                      sub-optimal. So I modified it." And then in the course of discussion
                                      they say things that make me suspect it is possible that they hadn't
                                      fully understood or adopted my suggestions, I am concerned that the
                                      adaptations are not local optimizations but simply a substitution for
                                      missing skills/knowledge needed to do it the way that was suggested.

                                      If that is the case it is okay. However, we are also talking about
                                      academic research (And, as Steven pointed out PhD level research is
                                      supposed to be on the cutting edge - moving the state of knowledge
                                      forward.) I think that it is even more important in an academic
                                      context to fully grok a concept before you attempt to change it.

                                      I'm also a little weary of what direction "forward" is in this
                                      context. Creating something more RUP-like is not "forward" in my
                                      humble opinion. I worked for a guy who claimed to be doing a blend of
                                      Scrum and RUP, but what he was really doing was failing to understand
                                      Scrum at all and just doing an iterative sort of RUP (WIth daily
                                      meetings where we had to listen to him talk for half-an-hour.) That's
                                      fine, until you start selling it to others as some sort of "improved
                                      Scrum" when you've yet to actually try what Scrum suggests.

                                      On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 10:03 PM, kentb<kentb@earthlink.
                                      <mailto:kentb%40earthlink.net> net> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Dear Zaidoun,
                                      >
                                      > It sounds like you made a sensible local adaptation of XP for your
                                      > situation. That's what XPers do. The question of whether those adaptations
                                      > are more generally applicable is worth careful study. Please keep me
                                      > apprised of your progress.
                                      >
                                      > Regards,
                                      >
                                      > Kent Beck
                                      > Three Rivers Institute
                                      >
                                      > _____
                                      >
                                      > From: extremeprogramming@ <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:extremeprogramming@ <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of zaidoun alzoabi
                                      > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:49 PM
                                      > To: extremeprogramming@ <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [good] [XP] Preparing XP for the big projects
                                      >
                                      > Dear all,
                                      > thanks for your reply
                                      >
                                      > your questions could be answered through reading this article
                                      > www.ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/4520396/4529902/04530347.pdf
                                      >
                                      > but for te time I will answer your main questions;
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > We have used XP in a big project that intended to computerize the tax
                                      > autority processes in Syria. The system is considered very complex due to
                                      > the many laws, regulations, decrees, and procedures used.
                                      > we had to modify the lifecycle of XP in order to deal with the complexity
                                      of
                                      > the system, this happened through adding a clear analysis phase before any
                                      > release, and breaking the system into smaller modules each taken by pair
                                      > developers.
                                      > in the analysis phase we used formal meeting sessions with tax experts and
                                      > managers and we used DFD and ERD to communicate with them.
                                      > These people did not have time to communicate with us on frequent basis
                                      and
                                      > in many cases they had conflicting ideas, this why we needed formal
                                      > communication with them.
                                      > pair development is different from pair programming as the pair here will
                                      > not only sit at the same computer and do the coding, our pair will do the
                                      > analysis for their module, desing the solution, integrate with the design
                                      of
                                      > other pairs modules and then do the coding
                                      > development=analysis+desing+programming+testing
                                      > the research goes beyond Boehm and Turner "balancing Agility with
                                      > Discipline" by saying how to do that in reality, and that too by focusing
                                      on
                                      > Nonake spiral knowledge sharing model SECI
                                      > best regards
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Adam Sroka
                                      ... I appreciate that. As I said, I don t see how what he is doing or purporting to have done moves our knowledge forward. But, if you do see that, then that
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jul 13, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:09 AM, kentb<kentb@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Dear Adam,
                                        >
                                        > I've been working on a way to respond positively to your message below. I
                                        > hope I have it.
                                        >
                                        > What I appreciate about the work Zaidoun is doing is that it takes XP into a
                                        > context unlike the one in which XP was created (government development) and
                                        > blends ideas from a familiar development style with what is new about XP. I
                                        > trust that he and his colleagues will evolve from the style they have now
                                        > based on their experiences, much as I hope to evolve my style.
                                        >

                                        I appreciate that. As I said, I don't see how what he is doing or
                                        purporting to have done moves our knowledge "forward." But, if you do
                                        see that, then that is good. I don't know everything, and I won't
                                        begin to claim to know that what you are seeing isn't there. All I am
                                        saying is that I don't see it.

                                        > What I heard in the responses to his query was, "You haven't earned all the
                                        > merit badges. Don't even bother talking to us until you have." I think
                                        > responses of that form discourage new ideas and participants to XP.
                                        >

                                        Sort of... There are a lot of people out there who claim that what we
                                        do can't or doesn't work. Very few of them seem to have completely
                                        understood or attempted what we have actually described. Further, many
                                        of us, myself included, have witnessed situations where these things
                                        didn't work and it was clearly attributable to a lack of skill or
                                        understanding. Perhaps some of us are too quick to conclude that
                                        someone who sees our approach as incomplete hasn't really had a
                                        thorough look.

                                        > I wish the community here was more accepting and encouraging. I can't force
                                        > that to happen so I do what I can to accept and encourage. I don't think
                                        > that makes me an "optimist" (which it sounds like you mean as a pejorative,
                                        > strangely enough), just someone who is curious about what the other 15
                                        > million programmers on the planet are thinking about.
                                        >

                                        I did not intend it as a pejorative. I meant precisely what I said
                                        above: that you are able to see positive things where I have failed to
                                        see any.
                                      • Tim Ottinger
                                        ... Adam, As people who pride themselves on quick thinking and quick learning, we tend to jump to ha and ri without much shu . I mostly worry about
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jul 14, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          > From: Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...>
                                          >
                                          > Whenever someone says to me, "The way you described turned out to be
                                          > sub-optimal. So I modified it." And then in the course of discussion
                                          > they say things that make me suspect it is possible that they hadn't
                                          > fully understood or adopted my suggestions, I am concerned that the
                                          > adaptations are not local optimizations but simply a substitution for
                                          > missing skills/knowledge needed to do it the way that was suggested.
                                          >

                                          Adam,

                                          As people who pride themselves on quick thinking and quick learning, we tend to jump to 'ha' and 'ri' without much 'shu'. I mostly worry about people who want to "improve" XP by making it into waterfall or undisciplined nonsense. But they have a right. Who knows? Perhaps they are as smart as they think, and will give us something we never had before.

                                          The good thing about freedom is that anything can happen. The bad thing about freedom is the same. :-)

                                          Tim Ottinger
                                          http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                                          http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
                                        • Adam Sroka
                                          ... Perhaps you are right. On the other hand, I don t feel terribly guilty about thinking the former in absence of any evidence of the latter. I also don t
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jul 14, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Tim Ottinger<linux_tim@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message ----
                                            >> From: Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...>
                                            >>
                                            >> Whenever someone says to me, "The way you described turned out to be
                                            >> sub-optimal. So I modified it." And then in the course of discussion
                                            >> they say things that make me suspect it is possible that they hadn't
                                            >> fully understood or adopted my suggestions, I am concerned that the
                                            >> adaptations are not local optimizations but simply a substitution for
                                            >> missing skills/knowledge needed to do it the way that was suggested.
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            > Adam,
                                            >
                                            > As people who pride themselves on quick thinking and quick learning, we tend
                                            > to jump to 'ha' and 'ri' without much 'shu'. I mostly worry about people who
                                            > want to "improve" XP by making it into waterfall or undisciplined nonsense.
                                            > But they have a right. Who knows? Perhaps they are as smart as they think,
                                            > and will give us something we never had before.
                                            >

                                            Perhaps you are right. On the other hand, I don't feel terribly guilty
                                            about thinking the former in absence of any evidence of the latter. I
                                            also don't feel particularly guilty when someone says, "look what I
                                            did," and I ask them, "how/why is that better?"

                                            > The good thing about freedom is that anything can happen. The bad thing
                                            > about freedom is the same. :-)
                                            >

                                            I absolutely think that people have the right to do whatever they
                                            want. I also think that we have the right to challenge them.
                                            Particularly, when they come to us asking for validation (or at least
                                            acknowledgment) of what they have changed.
                                          • Steven Gordon
                                            ... Especially when they call it research and/or hold it up as an exemplar.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jul 14, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Adam Sroka<adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Tim Ottinger<linux_tim@...> wrote:
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> ----- Original Message ----
                                              >>> From: Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...>
                                              >>>
                                              >>> Whenever someone says to me, "The way you described turned out to be
                                              >>> sub-optimal. So I modified it." And then in the course of discussion
                                              >>> they say things that make me suspect it is possible that they hadn't
                                              >>> fully understood or adopted my suggestions, I am concerned that the
                                              >>> adaptations are not local optimizations but simply a substitution for
                                              >>> missing skills/knowledge needed to do it the way that was suggested.
                                              >>>
                                              >>
                                              >> Adam,
                                              >>
                                              >> As people who pride themselves on quick thinking and quick learning, we
                                              >> tend
                                              >> to jump to 'ha' and 'ri' without much 'shu'. I mostly worry about people
                                              >> who
                                              >> want to "improve" XP by making it into waterfall or undisciplined
                                              >> nonsense.
                                              >> But they have a right. Who knows? Perhaps they are as smart as they think,
                                              >> and will give us something we never had before.
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              > Perhaps you are right. On the other hand, I don't feel terribly guilty
                                              > about thinking the former in absence of any evidence of the latter. I
                                              > also don't feel particularly guilty when someone says, "look what I
                                              > did," and I ask them, "how/why is that better?"
                                              >
                                              >> The good thing about freedom is that anything can happen. The bad thing
                                              >> about freedom is the same. :-)
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              > I absolutely think that people have the right to do whatever they
                                              > want. I also think that we have the right to challenge them.
                                              > Particularly, when they come to us asking for validation (or at least
                                              > acknowledgment) of what they have changed.

                                              Especially when they call it research and/or hold it up as an exemplar.
                                            • Chris Wheeler
                                              ... I got the impression that the original poster was presenting a hypothesis, formed from his experiences, which he hadn t tested but wanted to further
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jul 14, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:

                                                > I absolutely think that people have the right to do whatever they
                                                > want. I also think that we have the right to challenge them.
                                                > Particularly, when they come to us asking for validation (or at least
                                                > acknowledgment) of what they have changed.
                                                >

                                                I got the impression that the original poster was presenting a hypothesis,
                                                formed from his experiences, which he hadn't tested but wanted to further
                                                research. I didn't get the impression that his email was the end of his
                                                research nor the basis of any proof.

                                                Seems like a sound way to proceed, no?

                                                Chris.


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Steven Gordon
                                                On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Chris ... That would depend on what the OP means by the word is . My reading is that the research is well under way, if not
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jul 14, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Chris
                                                  Wheeler<christopher.wheeler@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >> I absolutely think that people have the right to do whatever they
                                                  >> want. I also think that we have the right to challenge them.
                                                  >> Particularly, when they come to us asking for validation (or at least
                                                  >> acknowledgment) of what they have changed.
                                                  >>
                                                  >
                                                  > I got the impression that the original poster was presenting a hypothesis,
                                                  > formed from his experiences, which he hadn't tested but wanted to further
                                                  > research. I didn't get the impression that his email was the end of his
                                                  > research nor the basis of any proof.
                                                  >
                                                  > Seems like a sound way to proceed, no?
                                                  >

                                                  That would depend on what the OP means by the word "is".

                                                  My reading is that the research is well under way, if not already done
                                                  and currently being written up.

                                                  I find it a huge stretch to read the OP's original post as a mere
                                                  research proposal. Can you really read it that way?

                                                  > Chris.
                                                  >
                                                • Tim Ottinger
                                                  ... It would only be the exemplar thing that bothers me in the least. But I was convinced of a lot of things when I first read of XP, too. Tim Ottinger
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jul 14, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    > Especially when they call it research and/or hold it up as an exemplar.

                                                    It would only be the exemplar thing that bothers me in the least.
                                                    But I was convinced of a lot of things when I first read of XP, too.

                                                    Tim Ottinger
                                                    http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                                                    http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
                                                  • Chris Wheeler
                                                    ... Yes I can read it that way, once I factored in the OP s English-as-a-second-language. Chris. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jul 14, 2009
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:

                                                      >
                                                      > I find it a huge stretch to read the OP's original post as a mere
                                                      > research proposal. Can you really read it that way?


                                                      Yes I can read it that way, once I factored in the OP's
                                                      English-as-a-second-language.

                                                      Chris.


                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • zdnfa
                                                      Dear all, Thanks for your comments on the topic, but I was a bit surprised at the extremism I saw about XP, something I don t think Kent Beck really meant by
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jul 14, 2009
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Dear all,

                                                        Thanks for your comments on the topic, but I was a bit surprised at the extremism I saw about XP, something I don't think Kent Beck really meant by EXTREME PROGRAMMING.
                                                        I find it compulsory to develop XP if we are really XPers, and here I want to expose what some of what we have found in a survey we conducted in IADIS Informatics 2009 conference in Portugal.
                                                        1. 95.5 of the surveyed IT experts (taught, practiced, or at least have good knowledge of XP) say knowledge sharing enhances software quality.
                                                        2. More than 80% said that we need both explicit and tacit knowledge sharing.
                                                        3. 68% said that an analysis phase will enhance explicit and tacit knowledge sharing in XP.
                                                        So the modification we made is seen in the following figure:


                                                        And we emphasized principles like:
                                                        • Use always balanced pairs. Try to make the pair look like pair developers rather than pair programmers.
                                                        • Use rationalized documentation that keeps project within the control of the project manager or coach.
                                                        • Perform one analysis phase per one release. This eases the job of the on-site-customer
                                                        Is there any problem in that?!!!
                                                      • Ron Jeffries
                                                        Hello, zdnfa. On Tuesday, July 14, 2009, at 10:48:03 PM, you ... Yes. It is surely possible to be successful using the approach you ve talked about: it s
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Jul 14, 2009
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Hello, zdnfa. On Tuesday, July 14, 2009, at 10:48:03 PM, you
                                                          wrote:

                                                          > Is there any problem in that?!!!

                                                          Yes. It is surely possible to be successful using the approach
                                                          you've talked about: it's possible to be successful with almost any
                                                          approach.

                                                          What is your plan for comparing your approach to other more
                                                          "classic" approaches, such as a more pure version of XP, or a more
                                                          pure version of waterfall, and so on?

                                                          Or, without such comparisons, what valid conclusions do you think
                                                          you might be able to draw?

                                                          Ron Jeffries
                                                          www.XProgramming.com
                                                          www.xprogramming.com/blog
                                                          It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare,
                                                          it is because we do not dare that they are difficult. --Seneca
                                                        • Steven Gordon
                                                          ... agreed. ... agreed. ... Agile does away with phases by rotating the traditional process 90 degrees. Instead of doing phases in order such as these: -
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Jul 14, 2009
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 7:48 PM, zdnfa<zdnfa@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Dear all,
                                                            >
                                                            > Thanks for your comments on the topic, but I was a bit surprised at the
                                                            > extremism I saw about XP, something I don't think Kent Beck really meant by
                                                            > EXTREME PROGRAMMING.
                                                            > I find it compulsory to develop XP if we are really XPers, and here I want
                                                            > to expose what some of what we have found in a survey we conducted in IADIS
                                                            > Informatics 2009 conference in Portugal.
                                                            > 1. 95.5 of the surveyed IT experts (taught, practiced, or at least have good
                                                            > knowledge of XP) say knowledge sharing enhances software quality.

                                                            agreed.
                                                            > 2. More than 80% said that we need both explicit and tacit knowledge
                                                            > sharing.

                                                            agreed.
                                                            > 3. 68% said that an analysis phase will enhance explicit and tacit knowledge
                                                            > sharing in XP.

                                                            Agile does away with phases by rotating the traditional process 90 degrees.

                                                            Instead of doing phases in order such as these:
                                                            - domain modeling for the whole system,
                                                            - analysis for the whole system,
                                                            - design for the whole system,
                                                            - coding for the whole system,
                                                            - testing for the whole system,
                                                            - deployment for the whole system,
                                                            - getting feedback from the users on the whole system,
                                                            agile does all of the above for just a few thin functional slices of
                                                            the whole system in just 2 weeks, and then all of the above for a few
                                                            more functional slices the next two weeks, etc, always delivering
                                                            working software, learning from successes and failures, and applying
                                                            that learning to the next 2 week iteration.

                                                            > So the modification we made is seen in the following figure:
                                                            >
                                                            > And we emphasized principles like:
                                                            > • Use always balanced pairs. Try to make the pair look like pair developers
                                                            > rather than pair programmers.
                                                            > • Use rationalized documentation that keeps project within the control of
                                                            > the project manager or coach.

                                                            The people doing the work keep it under control because they cannot go
                                                            too far wrong in 2 weeks and get feedback from each delivery of
                                                            working software. The overhead and misunderstandings of communication
                                                            via documentation is avoided.

                                                            > • Perform one analysis phase per one release. This eases the job of the
                                                            > on-site-customer

                                                            Too long to wait for feedback and recover from mistakes and misunderstandings.

                                                            > Is there any problem in that?!!!
                                                            >
                                                          • Adam Sroka
                                                            ... That s dangerously close to an ad hominem. No one here has said anything that extreme thus far. ... It s rare that 95.5% of people agree on anything. The
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Jul 17, 2009
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 10:48 PM, zdnfa<zdnfa@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Dear all,
                                                              >
                                                              > Thanks for your comments on the topic, but I was a bit surprised at the
                                                              > extremism I saw about XP, something I don't think Kent Beck really meant by
                                                              > EXTREME PROGRAMMING.

                                                              That's dangerously close to an ad hominem. No one here has said
                                                              anything that extreme thus far.

                                                              > I find it compulsory to develop XP if we are really XPers, and here I want
                                                              > to expose what some of what we have found in a survey we conducted in IADIS
                                                              > Informatics 2009 conference in Portugal.
                                                              > 1. 95.5 of the surveyed IT experts (taught, practiced, or at least have good
                                                              > knowledge of XP) say knowledge sharing enhances software quality.

                                                              It's rare that 95.5% of people agree on anything. The term "knowledge
                                                              sharing" without further elucidation is vacuous. Those who promote
                                                              document-centric methods would consider what they are doing "knowledge
                                                              sharing" and believe that it "enhances quality." Most Agile proponents
                                                              believe the same thing about their own notion of "knowledge sharing."
                                                              Neither group necessarily believes that the other's method of
                                                              "knowledge sharing" is effective.

                                                              > 2. More than 80% said that we need both explicit and tacit knowledge
                                                              > sharing.

                                                              That agrees with a basic tenet of Agile. Tacit knowledge, by
                                                              definition, can't be shared in a document-centric way. We believe that
                                                              document-centric approaches are flawed and direct interpersonal
                                                              communication is necessary. The above statistic supports that.
                                                              However, explicit knowledge can be shared verbally as well as written
                                                              down. So, the need for explicit knowledge does not necessitate a
                                                              document-centric approach.

                                                              > 3. 68% said that an analysis phase will enhance explicit and tacit knowledge
                                                              > sharing in XP.

                                                              I can't address that. If the question were posed to me I would refuse
                                                              to answer until I had sufficient definitions of "analysis phase" and
                                                              "knowledge sharing in XP". Assuming I knew what was being suggested, I
                                                              would have to try it alongside the existing practices to know if it
                                                              added anything or took anything away.

                                                              > So the modification we made is seen in the following figure:
                                                              >
                                                              > And we emphasized principles like:
                                                              > • Use always balanced pairs. Try to make the pair look like pair developers
                                                              > rather than pair programmers.

                                                              I don't understand that. What is the difference between a "programmer"
                                                              and a "developer" in your estimation? How does one "balance" a pair?
                                                              Can I still work with someone who is substantially lighter or heavier
                                                              than I am? ;-)

                                                              > • Use rationalized documentation that keeps project within the control of
                                                              > the project manager or coach.

                                                              This statement scares me a lot. Project managers don't "control"
                                                              anything, nor should they try. That goes at least double for coaches.
                                                              In my experience, unless documentation provides some direct business
                                                              value it is usually wasteful. Even when it does provide value,
                                                              maintaining it is more expensive than most realize.

                                                              > • Perform one analysis phase per one release. This eases the job of the
                                                              > on-site-customer

                                                              How does this ease the job for the Customer? Is the Customer's job too hard now?
                                                            • Chris Wheeler
                                                              Adam, you appear quite passionate about research and XP. Since this research clearly isn t up to your standard, or even necessary, would you suggest a few
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Jul 18, 2009
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                Adam, you appear quite passionate about research and XP. Since this research
                                                                clearly isn't up to your standard, or even necessary, would you suggest a
                                                                few topics that may be worthy of further academic research? That may be
                                                                more helpful than this dismissive approach you are taking.

                                                                Chris.

                                                                On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:

                                                                > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 10:48 PM, zdnfa<zdnfa@...> wrote:
                                                                > >
                                                                > >
                                                                > >
                                                                > > Dear all,
                                                                > >
                                                                > > Thanks for your comments on the topic, but I was a bit surprised at the
                                                                > > extremism I saw about XP, something I don't think Kent Beck really meant
                                                                > by
                                                                > > EXTREME PROGRAMMING.
                                                                >
                                                                > That's dangerously close to an ad hominem. No one here has said
                                                                > anything that extreme thus far.
                                                                >
                                                                > > I find it compulsory to develop XP if we are really XPers, and here I
                                                                > want
                                                                > > to expose what some of what we have found in a survey we conducted in
                                                                > IADIS
                                                                > > Informatics 2009 conference in Portugal.
                                                                > > 1. 95.5 of the surveyed IT experts (taught, practiced, or at least have
                                                                > good
                                                                > > knowledge of XP) say knowledge sharing enhances software quality.
                                                                >
                                                                > It's rare that 95.5% of people agree on anything. The term "knowledge
                                                                > sharing" without further elucidation is vacuous. Those who promote
                                                                > document-centric methods would consider what they are doing "knowledge
                                                                > sharing" and believe that it "enhances quality." Most Agile proponents
                                                                > believe the same thing about their own notion of "knowledge sharing."
                                                                > Neither group necessarily believes that the other's method of
                                                                > "knowledge sharing" is effective.
                                                                >
                                                                > > 2. More than 80% said that we need both explicit and tacit knowledge
                                                                > > sharing.
                                                                >
                                                                > That agrees with a basic tenet of Agile. Tacit knowledge, by
                                                                > definition, can't be shared in a document-centric way. We believe that
                                                                > document-centric approaches are flawed and direct interpersonal
                                                                > communication is necessary. The above statistic supports that.
                                                                > However, explicit knowledge can be shared verbally as well as written
                                                                > down. So, the need for explicit knowledge does not necessitate a
                                                                > document-centric approach.
                                                                >
                                                                > > 3. 68% said that an analysis phase will enhance explicit and tacit
                                                                > knowledge
                                                                > > sharing in XP.
                                                                >
                                                                > I can't address that. If the question were posed to me I would refuse
                                                                > to answer until I had sufficient definitions of "analysis phase" and
                                                                > "knowledge sharing in XP". Assuming I knew what was being suggested, I
                                                                > would have to try it alongside the existing practices to know if it
                                                                > added anything or took anything away.
                                                                >
                                                                > > So the modification we made is seen in the following figure:
                                                                > >
                                                                > > And we emphasized principles like:
                                                                > > � Use always balanced pairs. Try to make the pair look like pair
                                                                > developers
                                                                > > rather than pair programmers.
                                                                >
                                                                > I don't understand that. What is the difference between a "programmer"
                                                                > and a "developer" in your estimation? How does one "balance" a pair?
                                                                > Can I still work with someone who is substantially lighter or heavier
                                                                > than I am? ;-)
                                                                >
                                                                > > � Use rationalized documentation that keeps project within the control of
                                                                > > the project manager or coach.
                                                                >
                                                                > This statement scares me a lot. Project managers don't "control"
                                                                > anything, nor should they try. That goes at least double for coaches.
                                                                > In my experience, unless documentation provides some direct business
                                                                > value it is usually wasteful. Even when it does provide value,
                                                                > maintaining it is more expensive than most realize.
                                                                >
                                                                > > � Perform one analysis phase per one release. This eases the job of the
                                                                > > on-site-customer
                                                                >
                                                                > How does this ease the job for the Customer? Is the Customer's job too hard
                                                                > now?
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                                >
                                                                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                                                >
                                                                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                                                > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                                                >
                                                                > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >


                                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.