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Re: [XP] Re: Certification on eXtreme Programming

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... Yes ... ... I m not sure what you mean here ... just saying again that there needs to be an authority? Or something else. ... Yes ... ... Yes ... ... There
    Message 1 of 94 , May 4, 2009
      Hello, Olof. On Monday, May 4, 2009, at 8:33:09 AM, you wrote:

      > Just look at other proffesions:

      > * The certification should be done by an "independant" authority
      > (governmental or market-spanning organisation), not by companies like
      > IBM, Microsoft, SUN

      Yes ...

      > * Compare with a veterinary/doctoral/pilot license for instance, there
      > is an "institution" that graduates and gives away licenses.

      I'm not sure what you mean here ... just saying again that there
      needs to be an authority? Or something else.

      > * Not everybody and anybody is granted a license just by paying enough
      > dough. Just the ones that are good/fluent enough.

      Yes ...

      > * The certification should require practical, hands-on programming,
      > being judged by several experienced developers. Compare with a doctors
      > exam, where many doctors make a statement/judgement about the student.

      Yes ...

      > Now I don't think the s/w industry is anywhere near that, and won't be
      > anytime soon (we're all to busy making money).

      There is a difference between "could" and "will". As far as I know,
      medical schools pay their people reasonably well. Flying schools
      probably make some money. And so on.

      > I think looking at the individual developers "past project portfolio"
      > is what can be practically done instead.

      Yes ... as I'm interested in scaling, and in some kind of
      certification rather than just my own hiring ... how could a
      reasonable review process be set up?

      > (unless you have a lot of time to spend pair-programming with him/her;
      > that would be a better measure of course, consider yourself happy if
      > your company allows you to spend hiring-time doing this to 10
      > candidates)

      Yes ... but again we've turned from certification to hiring. What if
      someone had pair programmed with Bob Martin or even me, and we rated
      them 0.75 Cunninghams. Would that be of value to a hiring authority?
      (Apologies to Ward. :) )

      Ron Jeffries
      We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
      -- Albert Einstein
    • Adrian Howard
      ... Not sure that it is mind - I m often wrong :) Adrian
      Message 94 of 94 , May 8, 2009
        On 6 May 2009, at 04:08, Ron Jeffries wrote:

        > Hello, Adrian. On Tuesday, May 5, 2009, at 11:37:58 AM, you wrote:
        >> That said, my perception is that the odds of getting a bad candidate
        >> at interview increase if they have certifications listed on their
        >> resume.
        >> My post hoc rationalisation for this experiences is not so much
        >> related to the certification programme itself (although many of them
        >> have severe problems), but to the sort of folk they can attract.
        >> The less creative, by-the-book, list-following developer seems to see
        >> certification programmes as a way to prove their competence. The more
        >> creative, problem-oriented, passionate developers seem to spend their
        >> free chunk of career development time building something cool, or
        >> learning erlang, or contributing to open source projects or...
        > Interesting model. I can see how it might be.

        Not sure that it is mind - I'm often wrong :)

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