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Re: [XP] text versions of story cards

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  • Pieter Nagel
    ... Others answered WHAT is on the story cards. I want to take a step back and talk about WHY they are cards in the first place. Since you are blind, you will
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 3 10:33 AM
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      On Thu, 2009-04-02 at 19:11 -0400, Justin Daubenmire wrote:

      > However, I have a question on using story cards.
      >
      > I am a blind computer programmer and use screen reading software to
      > program with - www.freedomscientific.com - jaws for windows.

      Others answered WHAT is on the story cards. I want to take a step back
      and talk about WHY they are cards in the first place.

      Since you are blind, you will need to make a fundamental change to the
      idea of story cards in order to get the same value out of them. So I
      will tell you the big picture of why we use cards, and then you will
      have to think up something different that gives you and your team a
      similar benefit.

      We use story cards because we like to track our progress using
      lightweight tools such as magnetic boards that we stick cards to. Each
      card represents a customer Story that is being worked on in this
      iteration. We move the cards around whenever we start working on them,
      whenever we think we are finished and the customer can start acceptance
      testing, and so on.

      The value we get out of it is that we can all stand together in front of
      it and immediately get an overview of what the progress of this
      iteration is. Also, because it is simple, just pencil and paper, we can
      easily change our process to try more efficient ways of working, and we
      don't need to reconfigure or reprogram any project managment tools.
      Ideally, this board is somewhere where people often see it so that they
      are constantly kept aware of the priorities and progress every time they
      accidentally look at it, without needing to fire up a program first.

      The important point, for you, is this: the story card does NOT contain
      any detail about the requirements. The customer keeps those details
      elsewhere, in whichever form they like. The story card, instead, is just
      a token: a card labelled "Password update screen" is just a marker that
      we move across the board, and as it moves from left to right, everyone
      can see that the current iterations scheduled work on creating a screen
      for updating the password has now been started/finished/tested or
      whatever.

      You will need tokens that remind you of the user stories in a different
      fashion, most likely tactile. You could use a braille machine to write
      short one-sentence descriptions of tasks, stick that one cards,
      underneath the written description, and then you can get an overview of
      the project by feeling whether a card is now under the "completed"
      heading or not, and the others on your team can do the same by looking.

      However, with all of the feeling, the cards might fall off the board to
      often. Then you will have to change your project tracking board to
      something flat, like a large table, and you can stick the braille
      descriptions to something heavy (like paperweights) that you move over
      the table as the cards progress.

      But in your case, it might be that it is well and truly easier for you
      to track the progress using something that your computer can read aloud
      to you. You could stick the stories of the current iteration in a
      spreadsheet, for example. The essence of the "story card" idea is to
      keep it simple, though - maybe a text file will also work for you.

      Then you will have to make trade-off decisions. Is the value of a visual
      story board so high, for the rest of the team, that it is worth the
      effort to have the rest of the team sync your spreadsheet with their
      board, and vice versa? Or would it be more effect if your entire team
      standardised on just using the medium that you can also use? Or would my
      idea, of tokens on a table, that you can feel and they can see, work
      well? I don't know. I've never tried it.

      >
      --
      Pieter Nagel
      www.nagel.co.za
    • James Carr
      I think Justin s situation really underscores the value of using alt attributes on images. :) Thanks, James ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 3 10:52 AM
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        I think Justin's situation really underscores the value of using alt
        attributes on images. :)

        Thanks,
        James

        On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Justin Daubenmire <jdaubenm@...>wrote:

        > All,
        >
        > I am new to the list and I am sure this is beating a dead horse. However, I
        > have a question on using story cards.
        >
        > I am a blind computer programmer and use screen reading software to program
        > with - www.freedomscientific.com - jaws for windows.
        >
        > I only mention my disability because most example story cards have been
        > images. Well, images just won't work for me *grin*.
        >
        > So, I was wondering if folks here could post me a few text representations
        > of story cards. I understand the theory of them, have read quite a bit on
        > them, but seeing real life use of them - I cannot seem to find text
        > versions.
        >
        > Card, Conversation, Confirmation.
        >
        > Would something like this be acceptable?
        >
        > Card: As an administrator, I want to be able to enter new employees into
        > the system so I can manage my staff.
        >
        > Conversation: misc chit chat amongst the team - customer, programmers,
        > pm's, etc.
        >
        > Confirmation: ??? this is to be (I think) acceptance tests from the
        > customer only? Or do programmers ever jot down a few unit test ideas here in
        > the confirmation - back side of the card?
        >
        > My confusion is - how do I take the confirmation and translate it to
        > tdd/unit tests etc. I am referring to "in practice" how do you guys handle
        > the confirmation part and then sit down with the confirmation and program
        > the unit tests?
        >
        > Again, if I could "see" some real life text representations of story cards
        > I think it would really help me get it drilled in.
        >
        > Over the past two months, I have trained my current programming team, all
        > are sighted accept me, on agile methods, have implemented some of the agile
        > concepts, and now I am trying to get story cards in place.
        >
        > I introduced the team to story cards today, but after the meeting, I just
        > felt like I needed to confirm my understanding and clear up some of the fog
        > so we use the tool the way it was intended to be used.
        >
        > Thanks for any feedback!
        > Regards,
        > Justin
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ron Jeffries
        ... It sure does. I ve put that on my list for when I am allowed to update my site again ... Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com www.xprogramming.com/blog
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 3 11:09 AM
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          Hello, James. On Friday, April 3, 2009, at 1:52:45 PM, you wrote:

          > I think Justin's situation really underscores the value of using alt
          > attributes on images. :)

          It sure does. I've put that on my list for when I am allowed to
          update my site again ...

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          www.xprogramming.com/blog
          Sometimes you just have to stop holding on with both hands, both
          feet, and your tail, to get someplace better. Of course you might
          plummet to the earth and die, but probably not:
          You were made for this.
        • Jeff Grigg
          ... Or, given a good standup meeting each morning, you might not need anything other than three-by-five cards with story names on them, pinned to a board:
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 3 12:58 PM
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            > --- Justin Daubenmire wrote:
            >> I am a blind computer programmer [...]

            --- Pieter Nagel <pieter@...> wrote:
            > You will need tokens that remind you of the user stories
            > in a different fashion, most likely tactile. [...]
            >
            > However, with all of the feeling, the cards might fall
            > off the board to often. [...]

            Or, given a good standup meeting each morning, you might not need anything other than three-by-five cards with story names on them, pinned to a board: It's a good idea for the team to review the current stories at the standup meeting. If they got in the habit of consistently naming the stories they're talking about, rather than just pointing at them, you might be able to keep up. Assuming stories are in a priority order, at the end of one story you could ask your partner, "What's the next story to pick up?" and they'd easily be able to tell you, and to move the story on the board.

            Certainly reasonable accommodation is good. And required. ...for good reason.

            I recommend trying something agile, and introducing formality and structure as needed. Try to emphasize talking over tools. If that's not sufficient, look at tools.
          • Pieter Nagel
            ... Agreed. Even if tools refers only to low-tech tools like whiteboards, talking is still better. I can t help being curious, just for curiosity s sake:
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 3 1:23 PM
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              On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 19:58 +0000, Jeff Grigg wrote:

              > I recommend trying something agile, and introducing formality and
              > structure as needed. Try to emphasize talking over tools. If that's
              > not sufficient, look at tools.

              Agreed. Even if "tools" refers only to low-tech tools like whiteboards,
              talking is still better.

              I can't help being curious, just for curiosity's sake: what would an
              Information Radiator be like, if it were intended for a blind audience?
              I guess it would have to be auditory, in order to still "radiate" the
              information.

              My first gut guess was that low-tech auditory information radiators
              don't exist, and that's why I thumbsucked a proposal for a tactile
              equivalent.

              But I suspect I'm wrong. Hotel-style desk bells, for example, could be
              used to radiate information - whenever a Story is Done Done, the pair
              could tap their bell.

              It gets a bit fuzzy, though, when I think of the *value* of all these
              ringing bells and noises. I strongly suspect that the very idea sounds
              as silly to a blind user who has no prior experience with an information
              radiator, as the idea of a story-board sounds silly to someone who only
              has past experience with automated MS Project style tracking tools.

              What's really needed, in this discussion, is some input from blind XP
              practicioners who could share their own experience with modifying the
              Information Radiator idea for their own use.

              In the meantime, I suspect that other XP practices like Whole Team
              together in one room will become correspondingly more important to
              Justin, in the absence of a good alternative to a story board.

              >
              --
              Pieter Nagel
              www.nagel.co.za
            • Jeff Grigg
              ... Not a silly idea at all. In fact, I ve heard of a number of teams setting up their build systems to play success and failure sounds automatically. In
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 3 4:49 PM
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                --- Pieter Nagel <pieter@...> wrote:
                > I can't help being curious, just for curiosity's sake:
                > what would an Information Radiator be like, if it were
                > intended for a blind audience? I guess it would have to
                > be auditory, in order to still "radiate" the information.
                >
                > My first gut guess was that low-tech auditory information
                > radiators don't exist, and that's why I thumbsucked a
                > proposal for a tactile equivalent.
                >
                > [...]

                Not a silly idea at all. In fact, I've heard of a number of teams setting up their build systems to play success and failure sounds automatically. In fact, there's a standard ant task to do this:

                http://ant.apache.org/manual/OptionalTasks/sound.html

                Auditory information radiators may be low-bandwidth (meaning that they may not convey a lot of information), but they are widely used.

                And given text-to-speech, one can get high bandwidth information radiating pretty quickly. It might be distracting. But if the information is relevant to all the members of the team, then it's not likely to be distracting.
              • Jeff Grigg
                ... Heck; we ve been using green and red lights and lava lamps as project status indicators. Don t underestimate the value of good low-bandwidth information
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 3 4:53 PM
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                  > Auditory information radiators may be low-bandwidth (meaning
                  > that they may not convey a lot of information), but they are
                  > widely used.

                  Heck; we've been using green and red lights and lava lamps as project status indicators. Don't underestimate the value of good low-bandwidth information radiators!
                • Justin Daubenmire
                  ... From: James Carr I think Justin s situation really underscores the value of using alt attributes on images. :) Yes, hearing an alt tag read to me verbally
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 3 6:39 PM
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: James Carr
                    I think Justin's situation really underscores the value of using alt
                    attributes on images. :)

                    Yes, hearing an alt tag read to me verbally such as "picture showing a waterfall" or "click here to log in" instead of "graphic" is extremely helpful.

                    If alt tags are missing, screen reading technology will simply speak "graphic".

                    This is one of my tasks at my job - testing our sites for 508 compliance as many of our projects are state level RFP projects and that is a requirement.

                    Regards,
                    Justin


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                  • Justin Daubenmire
                    Hi Ron, ... From: Ron Jeffries It sure does. I ve put that on my list for when I am allowed to update my site again ... That would be appreciated. Luckily your
                    Message 9 of 26 , Apr 3 6:50 PM
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                      Hi Ron,
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Ron Jeffries

                      It sure does. I've put that on my list for when I am allowed to
                      update my site again ...

                      That would be appreciated. Luckily your extreme programming in C#.NET book on safari.oreilly.com worked out great. I read it in one evening and I am not kidding. You and your partner had me laughing so hard - and I picked up quite a bit from the book.

                      Actually, thank God for safari... it is a blind man's treasure... pretty much everyone's books are on it, in html format, all graphics have alt tags, and it lets me stay current with new whatevers.

                      If there are any other book authors on list here... let me encourage you to put your book on safari.oreilly.com in html format. The trend is becoming high fadility only and high fadility is simply graphics and screen readers cannot read high fadility at all. html format works great as the screen readers manipulate the DOM and can read everything - all the text.

                      I currently have uncle bob's book "clean code" and am blowing through it rather quickly. At work the joke is quickly becoming "here comes the sniffer" because I am blind, have a keen sense of smell, and now a keener sense of code smell and love to point out "dude, that smells refactor it srp style man!"


                      Regards,
                      Justin


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Justin Daubenmire
                      Hi Jeff, ... From: Jeff Grigg Or, given a good standup meeting each morning, you might not need anything other than three-by-five cards with story names on
                      Message 10 of 26 , Apr 3 6:54 PM
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                        Hi Jeff,

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Jeff Grigg
                        Or, given a good standup meeting each morning, you might not need anything other than three-by-five cards with story names on them, pinned to a board: It's a good idea for the team to review the current stories at the standup meeting. If they got in the habit of consistently naming the stories they're talking about, rather than just pointing at them, you might be able to keep up. Assuming stories are in a priority order, at the end of one story you could ask your partner, "What's the next story to pick up?" and they'd easily be able to tell you, and to move the story on the board.

                        Excellent suggestion. This would work perfectly. I actually do not know braille, sometimes I wish I did, but in an era of speaking technology I have never learned it - talking computers, talking internet, talking watches, talking calculators, talking scales (of which I never get on!) etc.




                        Regards,
                        Justin


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Justin Daubenmire
                        Hi Pieter, ... From: Pieter Nagel I can t help being curious, just for curiosity s sake: what would an Information Radiator be like, if it were intended for a
                        Message 11 of 26 , Apr 3 6:56 PM
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                          Hi Pieter,
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Pieter Nagel

                          I can't help being curious, just for curiosity's sake: what would an
                          Information Radiator be like, if it were intended for a blind audience?
                          I guess it would have to be auditory, in order to still "radiate" the
                          information.

                          Pardon my ignorance but what is an Information Radiator?

                          Regards,
                          Justin


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Justin Daubenmire
                          ... From: Jeff Grigg Not a silly idea at all. In fact, I ve heard of a number of teams setting up their build systems to play success and failure sounds
                          Message 12 of 26 , Apr 3 7:18 PM
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Jeff Grigg
                            Not a silly idea at all. In fact, I've heard of a number of teams setting up their build systems to play success and failure sounds automatically. In fact, there's a standard ant task to do this:

                            This is great! We are a Microsoft shop, I have setup cc.net for our CI and just the other day I was thinking... wouldn't it be hysterical to play a really funny failure sound for the team when someone breaks our build and play a sound for a successful build or fix build.

                            My team, for whatever reason, actually are into sound clips to raise laughter in the programming department so this could work!

                            We use nant so I'll take a look at the ant script and see if I can massage it over to the forbidden word "Microsoft"! *wink*.

                            Good point on text to speech too. I'll have to bounce that past my team to see what they think.


                            Thanks for the feedback!

                            Regards,
                            Justin


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • George Dinwiddie
                            ... http://alistair.cockburn.us/Information+radiator Also http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/BigVisibleCharts.htm -- ... * George Dinwiddie *
                            Message 13 of 26 , Apr 3 8:48 PM
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                              Justin Daubenmire wrote:
                              > Pardon my ignorance but what is an Information Radiator?

                              http://alistair.cockburn.us/Information+radiator

                              Also http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/BigVisibleCharts.htm

                              --
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                              Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                              Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            • Pieter Nagel
                              ... If Justin s team uses an electronic whiteboard, they could use text-to-speech set up a PC somewhere to just softly murmur the contents of the whiteboard
                              Message 14 of 26 , Apr 3 11:59 PM
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                                On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 23:49 +0000, Jeff Grigg wrote:

                                > And given text-to-speech, one can get high bandwidth information
                                > radiating pretty quickly. It might be distracting. But if the
                                > information is relevant to all the members of the team, then it's not
                                > likely to be distracting.

                                If Justin's team uses an electronic whiteboard, they could use
                                text-to-speech set up a PC somewhere to just softly murmur the contents
                                of the whiteboard every now and then: "New Login Screen: commenced....
                                Initial Booking Screen: done..... " and so on.

                                The volume and delay between repeats etc. would have to be tweaked to
                                give the maximum benefit to Justin, without negatively disturbing the
                                rest of his team. But since he most likely is more attuned to auditory
                                information than them, there should be a very different threshold for
                                them anyway.
                                >
                                >
                                --
                                Pieter Nagel
                                www.nagel.co.za
                              • Pieter Nagel
                                ... An Information Radiator is something that spreads information in a very cheap and efficent form. The metaphor is this: if you have a cold house with a
                                Message 15 of 26 , Apr 4 12:13 AM
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                                  On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 21:56 -0400, Justin Daubenmire wrote:

                                  > Pardon my ignorance but what is an Information Radiator?

                                  An Information Radiator is something that spreads information in a very
                                  cheap and efficent form.

                                  The metaphor is this: if you have a cold house with a normal radiator in
                                  one room, you don't need to walk over to the device, press buttons, and
                                  make it dispense a cupfull of heat to you. You get the heat just by
                                  being in the vicinity of the radiator.

                                  An information radiator, then, spreads information to everyone in the
                                  vicinity. They don't need to take any extra steps to receive it.

                                  The challenge for us, in this thread, is that the Information Radiators
                                  we know of depend on sight as the medium to spread their information.

                                  Story boards with story cards are one example. The whole team is
                                  constantly reminded of what their priorities and progess is, they don't
                                  need to take special steps to "go look" at a project tracker.

                                  You will need to take the concept and adapt it to a different medium;
                                  with the added complexity that the rest of the team may still need their
                                  visual radiators because their brains haven't adapted to process sound
                                  in the same way you do.
                                  >
                                  --
                                  Pieter Nagel
                                  www.nagel.co.za
                                • D. André Dhondt
                                  In the past I ve used wav sounds with CC.net as well; the surprising thing is we had to find VERY short sound clips to make it useful... we used a 2-second
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Apr 5 11:42 PM
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                                    In the past I've used wav sounds with CC.net as well; the surprising thing
                                    is we had to find VERY short sound clips to make it useful... we used a
                                    2-second applause for successful builds, as even with that it was clapping
                                    practically all day long. When something broke, the CI servers would boo at
                                    us, or play some Simpson's quote. We had the idea of rotating randomly
                                    through several sound clips for failed builds or fixed builds but it became
                                    too confusing. We also experimented a bit with using text-to-speech to read
                                    the failure message for a broken build...

                                    On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 4:18 AM, Justin Daubenmire <jdaubenm@...>wrote:

                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Jeff Grigg
                                    > Not a silly idea at all. In fact, I've heard of a number of teams setting
                                    > up their build systems to play success and failure sounds automatically. In
                                    > fact, there's a standard ant task to do this:
                                    >
                                    > This is great! We are a Microsoft shop, I have setup cc.net for our CI and
                                    > just the other day I was thinking... wouldn't it be hysterical to play a
                                    > really funny failure sound for the team when someone breaks our build and
                                    > play a sound for a successful build or fix build.
                                    >
                                    > My team, for whatever reason, actually are into sound clips to raise
                                    > laughter in the programming department so this could work!
                                    >
                                    > We use nant so I'll take a look at the ant script and see if I can massage
                                    > it over to the forbidden word "Microsoft"! *wink*.
                                    >
                                    > Good point on text to speech too. I'll have to bounce that past my team to
                                    > see what they think.
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for the feedback!
                                    >
                                    > Regards,
                                    > Justin
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >



                                    --
                                    D. André Dhondt
                                    mobile: 001 33 671 034 984


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Jeff Grigg
                                    ... Wizard shot the food! (Or, John broke the build. ;-) Have it read the stack trace to you. That should discourage breaking the build!!! ;-
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Apr 6 4:56 AM
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                                      --- D. André Dhondt <d.andre.dhondt@...> wrote:
                                      > [...] We also experimented a bit with using text-to-speech
                                      > to read the failure message for a broken build...

                                      "Wizard shot the food!"

                                      (Or, "John broke the build." ;-)

                                      Have it read the stack trace to you. That should discourage breaking the build!!! ;->
                                    • Dave Smith
                                      ... Or plaster their pictures up on large monitors throughout the building. I know several teams and organizations that have headed down the auto-shame
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Apr 6 8:43 AM
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                                        On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:56 AM, Jeff Grigg <jeffgrigg@...> wrote:

                                        >
                                        > (Or, "John broke the build." ;-)
                                        >
                                        > Have it read the stack trace to you. That should discourage breaking the
                                        > build!!! ;->


                                        Or plaster their pictures up on large monitors throughout the building.

                                        I know several teams and organizations that have headed down the
                                        "auto-shame" route.

                                        The challenge there is one of attribution. Unless you're doing a full build
                                        and test run
                                        per submit, assigning blame can be surprisingly tricky, requiring at least
                                        that the
                                        stack trace be examined and corresponding code checked for recent changes.

                                        A build tool that takes a quick approach to assigning blame risks a high
                                        rate of false
                                        positives, which will lead to the tool being ignored.

                                        The one company I know who has the working well has invested several
                                        developer
                                        years of effort in their diagnosis and attribution tool.

                                        Dave


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • William Wake
                                        ... I know this thread has moved on somewhat, but I posted some examples at http://xp123.com/xplor/user-story-example/index.shtml They re basically the cards
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Apr 7 12:11 PM
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                                          On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Justin Daubenmire <jdaubenm@...> wrote:

                                          > So, I was wondering if folks here could post me a few text representations
                                          > of story cards. I understand the theory of them, have read quite a bit on
                                          > them, but seeing real life use of them - I cannot seem to find text
                                          > versions.

                                          I know this thread has moved on somewhat, but I posted some examples at
                                          http://xp123.com/xplor/user-story-example/index.shtml

                                          They're basically the cards (in text form:) and a few notes on the
                                          conversation side.

                                          --Bill Wake

                                          --
                                          Bill Wake William.Wake@... www.xp123.com
                                        • Justin Daubenmire
                                          ... From: William Wake They re basically the cards (in text form:) and a few notes on the conversation side. Thanks - I will certainly read it over. Regards,
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Apr 7 1:27 PM
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                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: William Wake
                                            They're basically the cards (in text form:) and a few notes on the
                                            conversation side.

                                            Thanks - I will certainly read it over.


                                            Regards,
                                            Justin


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • jmilunsky
                                            There s no magic really. I wrote a blog on this very topic just last week .. http://agilesoftwaredevelopment.com/blog/jackmilunsky/user-stories-tell-it-it I
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Apr 7 9:05 PM
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                                              There's no magic really. I wrote a blog on this very topic just last week .. http://agilesoftwaredevelopment.com/blog/jackmilunsky/user-stories-tell-it-it

                                              I would recommend Mike Cohn's book his first book on user stories. You can also check his site out www.mountaingoatsoftware.com. He has tons of info on user stories.

                                              Typically, a user story is written in the following format

                                              As a <role> I'd like <describe functionality> because <benefit>

                                              So here's a real example

                                              As a frequent flyer I'd like to redeem my airmiles for a flight prior to them expiring.

                                              Stories are meant to capture the persona of the end user, the story (i.e. what's required) and the benefit.

                                              Be careful to add too much detail as it's meant to spark dialog between customer and development team during the planning meeting. ie. THe conversation is more important.

                                              Details can be captured on the reverse side of the card in the form of acceptance test criteria.

                                              Hope this helps
                                              Jack
                                              www.agilebuddy.com
                                              blog.agilebuddy.com

                                              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Daubenmire" <jdaubenm@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: William Wake
                                              > They're basically the cards (in text form:) and a few notes on the
                                              > conversation side.
                                              >
                                              > Thanks - I will certainly read it over.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Regards,
                                              > Justin
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