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Re: [XP] Integration with non-XP teams

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  • Tim Ottinger
    ... Perception altering: The problem isn t that your code went stale waiting for them. Being done first is the culprit? I think not. The problem, rather, is
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 1, 2009
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      > From: davenicolette <dnicolet@...>
      >
      > We can't prevent code from going stale while it waits for other groups to finish
      > their parts of the solution. By keeping our own code as clean as possible, we
      > minimize the impact of differences in the interfaces that come up when other
      > groups finalize their designs. If they won't provide interim versions for us to
      > test against, then we've got no way to know whether our code has gone stale, or
      > how badly. There's no magic bullet.

      Perception altering:

      The problem isn't that your code went stale waiting for them. Being done first
      is the culprit? I think not.

      The problem, rather, is that they didn't provide you feedback as they made
      changes to their code (finalized their designs). Had they kept you in the
      loop, there wouldn't be a disconnect.

      Some would argue that their final design differed from the spec, and that was
      the problem. I don't buy that, because as-built is always a little different
      from as-designed due to corrective steering.

      You are not at fault if they deliver something different than they expected
      to. The answer, most likely, lies in them keeping you aligned as they make
      improvements. Maybe by testing early with you.

      That's just good interface management, not an agile issue per se. One side
      is always done first unless they get together and drive the two home together.

      tim
    • davenicolette
      Tim, You re right. The solution to the true problem would be to improve the level of communication and collaboration in the organization. It isn t always
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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        Tim,

        You're right. The solution to the true problem would be to improve the level of communication and collaboration in the organization.

        It isn't always possible to achieve that in the short term. In those cases, we have to do the best thing that is feasible to do.

        Cheers,
        Dave

        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > From: davenicolette <dnicolet@...>
        > >
        > > We can't prevent code from going stale while it waits for other groups to finish
        > > their parts of the solution. By keeping our own code as clean as possible, we
        > > minimize the impact of differences in the interfaces that come up when other
        > > groups finalize their designs. If they won't provide interim versions for us to
        > > test against, then we've got no way to know whether our code has gone stale, or
        > > how badly. There's no magic bullet.
        >
        > Perception altering:
        >
        > The problem isn't that your code went stale waiting for them. Being done first
        > is the culprit? I think not.
        >
        > The problem, rather, is that they didn't provide you feedback as they made
        > changes to their code (finalized their designs). Had they kept you in the
        > loop, there wouldn't be a disconnect.
        >
        > Some would argue that their final design differed from the spec, and that was
        > the problem. I don't buy that, because as-built is always a little different
        > from as-designed due to corrective steering.
        >
        > You are not at fault if they deliver something different than they expected
        > to. The answer, most likely, lies in them keeping you aligned as they make
        > improvements. Maybe by testing early with you.
        >
        > That's just good interface management, not an agile issue per se. One side
        > is always done first unless they get together and drive the two home together.
        >
        > tim
        >
      • Olof Bjarnason
        ... I m thinking; wouldn t modern social communication tool like twitter be one way of keeping in synch? Say, each team has twitter user, and all team members
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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          2009/4/2 davenicolette <dnicolet@...>:
          > Tim,
          >
          > You're right. The solution to the true problem would be to improve the level
          > of communication and collaboration in the organization.
          >
          > It isn't always possible to achieve that in the short term. In those cases,
          > we have to do the best thing that is feasible to do.

          I'm thinking; wouldn't modern social communication tool like twitter
          be one way of keeping in synch?

          Say, each team has twitter user, and all team members can post on that.

          Then, everyone that is interested in what happens on that team can
          subscribe to that twitter user.

          >
          > Cheers,
          > Dave
          >
          > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...>
          > wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> > From: davenicolette <dnicolet@...>
          >
          >> >
          >> > We can't prevent code from going stale while it waits for other groups
          >> > to finish
          >> > their parts of the solution. By keeping our own code as clean as
          >> > possible, we
          >> > minimize the impact of differences in the interfaces that come up when
          >> > other
          >> > groups finalize their designs. If they won't provide interim versions
          >> > for us to
          >> > test against, then we've got no way to know whether our code has gone
          >> > stale, or
          >> > how badly. There's no magic bullet.
          >>
          >> Perception altering:
          >>
          >> The problem isn't that your code went stale waiting for them. Being done
          >> first
          >> is the culprit? I think not.
          >>
          >> The problem, rather, is that they didn't provide you feedback as they made
          >> changes to their code (finalized their designs). Had they kept you in the
          >> loop, there wouldn't be a disconnect.
          >>
          >> Some would argue that their final design differed from the spec, and that
          >> was
          >> the problem. I don't buy that, because as-built is always a little
          >> different
          >> from as-designed due to corrective steering.
          >>
          >> You are not at fault if they deliver something different than they
          >> expected
          >> to. The answer, most likely, lies in them keeping you aligned as they make
          >> improvements. Maybe by testing early with you.
          >>
          >> That's just good interface management, not an agile issue per se. One side
          >> is always done first unless they get together and drive the two home
          >> together.
          >>
          >> tim
          >>
          >
          >



          --
          Min blogg:
          http://olofb.wordpress.com
          [My blog, in Swedish]
        • Tim Ottinger
          ... As a bit of social engineering, just make sure that they don t perceive the problem as you being agile, but rather that you were done first. If agile is
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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            ----- Original Message ----
            > From: davenicolette <dnicolet@...>
            >
            > You're right. The solution to the true problem would be to improve the level of
            > communication and collaboration in the organization.
            >
            > It isn't always possible to achieve that in the short term. In those cases, we
            > have to do the best thing that is feasible to do.

            As a bit of social engineering, just make sure that they don't perceive
            the problem as you being agile, but rather that you were done first.
            If agile is the "problem", the solution is to stop it. I've seen it
            blamed for the wrong things.

            My most recent reversal was luckily when they blamed it for the right things.
            With agile, we worked on fewer things at once and followed given priorities.
            Certain individuals lost the ability to bypass priorities and assign whatever
            they want done directly to an individual developer. Since they didn't buy the
            whole lean/agile thing, they eventually reverted. I think that's fine.

            What I would hate to see is that they perceive your success as failure here.
            Do some marketing. Make sure they know that you're ahead of the game. It's
            important insurance.

            tim
          • Tim Ottinger
            ... A lot of places install jabber servers. It can help, if people actually watch it. Some places it s poorly attended and poorly monitored, and helps not at
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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              Olof Bjarnason says:
              > I'm thinking; wouldn't modern social communication tool like twitter
              > be one way of keeping in synch?
              >
              > Say, each team has twitter user, and all team members can post on that.
              >
              > Then, everyone that is interested in what happens on that team can
              > subscribe to that twitter user.


              A lot of places install jabber servers. It can help, if people actually watch it.
              Some places it's poorly attended and poorly monitored, and helps not at all.
              I find that wikis are pretty easy to ignore, even easier than emails.

              A local skype appeals to me. Messages are persistant enough, immediate enough.

              Tim Ottinger
              http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
              http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
            • Olof Bjarnason
              ... A group chat channel in skype is another idea, yes. Have you tried twitter/are you using twitter..? I think it is quite good for notifications . A lot
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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                2009/4/2 Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...>:
                >
                > Olof Bjarnason says:
                >> I'm thinking; wouldn't modern social communication tool like twitter
                >> be one way of keeping in synch?
                >>
                >> Say, each team has twitter user, and all team members can post on that.
                >>
                >> Then, everyone that is interested in what happens on that team can
                >> subscribe to that twitter user.
                >
                > A lot of places install jabber servers. It can help, if people actually
                > watch it.
                > Some places it's poorly attended and poorly monitored, and helps not at all.
                > I find that wikis are pretty easy to ignore, even easier than emails.
                >
                > A local skype appeals to me. Messages are persistant enough, immediate
                > enough.

                A group chat channel in skype is another idea, yes.

                Have you tried twitter/are you using twitter..? I think it is quite
                good for "notifications". A lot better than mails/blogs/wikis. How
                well a Skype group channel works out, I don't know. I guess a browser
                could be embedded with "home page" = your twitter feed, inside the
                IDE, to facilitate frequent viewing. Or something like that.

                [ Note: I cannot technically see why twitter is so good for
                notifications - IME it just is that way .. ]


                >
                > Tim Ottinger
                > http://agileinaflash.blogspot.com/
                > http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
                >
                >



                --
                Min blogg:
                http://olofb.wordpress.com
                [My blog, in Swedish]
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