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Re: [XP] The Whole Enchilada

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  • Adam Sroka
    On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Ron Jeffries ... Only if we have a systematic way of determining that you are producing working software of value to the
    Message 1 of 87 , Feb 1, 2009
      On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Ron Jeffries
      <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
      > Hello, Adam. On Sunday, February 1, 2009, at 12:46:24 PM, you
      > wrote:
      >
      >> Oddly, if you put a group of people together who aren't Agile they
      >> will continue not to be Agile despite the passage of time.
      >
      > Would that be true if we put them together, and demanded working
      > software every couple of weeks?
      >

      Only if we have a systematic way of determining that you are producing
      working software of value to the customer. This is exactly what the
      practices do. If you are not doing them now, there is no reason to
      expect that they will magically appear later. You have to sit down and
      do them.

      I was being a bit hyperbolic, but the situation I am lamenting is one
      where there is a manager who assumes that people will start doing
      things that make sense on their own despite the fact that they have
      been doing it another way (And producing crappy, un-tested, legacy
      code) for quite some time.

      > Would it be true if we did the above plus provided resources
      > addressing how to do it?
      >

      You need at least: a shared vision of what you are going to change, a
      systematic way to measure that change, and the motivation to get
      started. If any of those things are missing then it isn't going to
      happen no matter how long you stare at it, and providing resources is
      only helpful if those resources are wanted and used.
    • Brad Appleton
      Thanks Charlie for the thoughts and advice!
      Message 87 of 87 , Feb 7, 2009
        Thanks Charlie for the thoughts and advice!

        Charlie Poole wrote:
        > You have to be careful there. Usually, coaches are people who
        > have been successful with teams in the past. So they have lots
        > of skills and ways of doing things learned in the past. The
        > major thing a new coach needs - what I needed to develop
        > when I first started - is a sense of humility. You don't know
        > what a given team (one you aren't part of) should do.
        >
        > IME, this is the hardest part of being a coach, and it's
        > even harder for coaches who have some standing in the
        > organization, since they have to bend over backwards to
        > avoid the appearance of setting rules.
        >
        >> The change-team also (with input from the practicing agile coaches &
        >> engineers) provides the mechanism to help identify projects
        >> that are good candidates to be agile, and the
        >> sponsorship/advocacy to approach their management and discuss
        >> if they'd be open to it and what the benefits (and
        >> consequences) are. We're actually having some pretty good
        >> successes there.
        >
        > Here, I'd say the risk is beginning to think of agile as
        > one Way of doing things - not that you're thinking that
        > way, but I've seen internal groups like this move from
        > encouragement to standardization a time or two.
        >
        >> Getting back to the original topic of this thread, our
        >> "starter kit" has a menu of practices on it. There is a set
        >> that we say are "required in order to be agile" (we say we
        >> think you cant be agile without it -- even tho we dont force
        >> it). There are some that are considered "scaling"
        >> practices (e.g., "Scrum of Scrums", "Joint Retrospectives",
        >> "Feature-Teams") and we say when we believe those are
        >> applicable and should be used. There are some "optional
        >> practices", meaning that they may not be absolutely necessary
        >> for agility, but they really enhance it a lot. (again we dont
        >> force any things, we recommend and provide support and guidance)
        >
        > To be clear, I too think there are some practices you just
        > have to do to be agile. I just don't think you should necessarily
        > give people lists of them. It works much better (for me anyway)
        > to start fresh with each team, work with them and guide them
        > to decide how they will be agile.
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