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Re: [XP] Miss Ron Jeffries TDD Projects

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  • Ron Jeffries
    Hello, Joshua. Happy new year! On Friday, December 26, 2008, at 11:32:50 PM, you ... The exam, as I understand it, will be required of all new CSMs, starting
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
      Hello, Joshua. Happy new year!

      On Friday, December 26, 2008, at 11:32:50 PM, you
      wrote:

      > Ron, does your course offer that newfangled exam I've been hearing about?
      > And if so, does it examine people on their knowledge of just Scrum or Scrum
      > + XP?

      The exam, as I understand it, will be required of all new CSMs,
      starting sometime in the early part of the year. I have not seen it
      yet, don't even know how it will be administered, so I'm not sure
      just how I'll handle it at course time.

      > Also, did the new exam have anything to do with your decision to become a
      > CST?

      No. Actually the opportunity was offered to me, and it seemed like
      kind of a honor, recognizing my great mass and thickness, so I went
      for it. And, certainly, a public course is a nice way to get the
      word out and maybe even make a few bucks.

      > Like Jim Shore, we sure do find a lot of our work is cleaning up Scrum-based
      > processes. Maybe you can help people get started on the right foot -- i.e.
      > that superset you were mentioning above.

      Yes. Interestingly, both Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland make
      strong mention of XP practices in their presentations.

      I'm not sure what the root causes of people's difficulty are, but
      just continue to do my best to help people see what will work, and
      why. Whether they choose to do what will work is up to them ... and
      oddly, many seem almost consciously to choose not to try to make
      things better.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      www.xprogramming.com/blog
      Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the correct answer?
    • Dave Rooney
      ... If I ve asked this before, please forgive the repetition. What is fundamentally different between XP and Scrum + XP Practices ? I must just be somewhat
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
        Ron Jeffries wrote:
        > Yes. Interestingly, both Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland make
        > strong mention of XP practices in their presentations.
        >

        If I've asked this before, please forgive the repetition. What is
        fundamentally different between XP and "Scrum + XP Practices"? I must
        just be somewhat thick, 'cus I'm having a hard time figuring that out.

        The only answer I can come up with is that Scrum is an easier "sell".
        If that's the case, then adding the XP practices on top sounds an awful
        lot like upselling.

        > I'm not sure what the root causes of people's difficulty are, but
        > just continue to do my best to help people see what will work, and
        > why. Whether they choose to do what will work is up to them ... and
        > oddly, many seem almost consciously to choose not to try to make
        > things better.
        >

        Fair enough, but you've been saying that since long before you were
        bestowed with CSx after your name! ;)

        --

        Dave Rooney
        Mayford Technologies
        "Helping you become AGILE... to SURVIVE and THRIVE!"
        http://www.mayford.ca
        http://practicalagility.blogspot.com
        Twitter: daverooneyca
      • Ron Jeffries
        Hello, Dave. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 7:16:19 AM, you ... Existence of the ScrumMaster role; Existence of the Scrum of Scrums practice; Detailed
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
          Hello, Dave. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 7:16:19 AM, you
          wrote:

          > Ron Jeffries wrote:
          >> Yes. Interestingly, both Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland make
          >> strong mention of XP practices in their presentations.

          > If I've asked this before, please forgive the repetition. What is
          > fundamentally different between XP and "Scrum + XP Practices"? I must
          > just be somewhat thick, 'cus I'm having a hard time figuring that out.

          Existence of the ScrumMaster role;
          Existence of the Scrum of Scrums practice;
          Detailed differences in planning.

          > The only answer I can come up with is that Scrum is an easier "sell".
          > If that's the case, then adding the XP practices on top sounds an awful
          > lot like upselling.

          I guess, except that no one gets any money ...

          >> I'm not sure what the root causes of people's difficulty are, but
          >> just continue to do my best to help people see what will work, and
          >> why. Whether they choose to do what will work is up to them ... and
          >> oddly, many seem almost consciously to choose not to try to make
          >> things better.

          > Fair enough, but you've been saying that since long before you were
          > bestowed with CSx after your name! ;)

          I would hope so. I'm the same person. :)

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          www.xprogramming.com/blog
          Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
          The important thing is to not stop questioning. --Albert Einstein
        • Phlip
          ... XP s project model got borrowed from Scrum - sorting features in business order with regular iterations. (And standup meetings are not XP canon...) Scrum
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
            Cenk Çivici wrote:

            > I hear a lot about XP + Scrum. If XP is really the superset what is XP
            > + Scrum ? XP ? :)

            XP's project model got borrowed from Scrum - sorting features in business order
            with regular iterations. (And standup meetings are not XP canon...)

            Scrum is XP without all the technical practices. That makes it, in my humble
            experience, worse than useless. What's the point of frequent releases if
            nobody's writing unit tests as they go?

            --
            Phlip
          • Ron Jeffries
            Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you ... They sure as heck were were I learned XP. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
              Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you
              wrote:

              > (And standup meetings are not XP canon...)

              They sure as heck were were I learned XP.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              www.xprogramming.com/blog
              Q: How do we get to Aspen?
              A: Climb to the top of that hill.
              Q: That is so dumb: Aspen is in a valley.
              A: OK.
            • Ron Jeffries
              Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you ... Scrum is based on the notion of Inspect and Adapt . You re supposed to notice what is
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you
                wrote:

                > Scrum is XP without all the technical practices. That makes it, in my humble
                > experience, worse than useless. What's the point of frequent releases if
                > nobody's writing unit tests as they go?

                Scrum is based on the notion of "Inspect and Adapt". You're supposed
                to notice what is going on. For example, you notice that the code
                doesn't work or is fragile under change. You invent "writing unit
                tests as you go".

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                www.xprogramming.com/blog
                The greatest mistake we make is living in constant fear that we will make one.
                -- John Maxwell
              • Gary Brown
                ... From: Ron Jeffries To: Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [XP]
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
                  To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 9:51 AM
                  Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Miss Ron Jeffries TDD Projects


                  > Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  >> Scrum is XP without all the technical practices. That makes it, in my
                  >> humble
                  >> experience, worse than useless. What's the point of frequent releases if
                  >> nobody's writing unit tests as they go?
                  >
                  > Scrum is based on the notion of "Inspect and Adapt". You're supposed
                  > to notice what is going on. For example, you notice that the code
                  > doesn't work or is fragile under change. You invent "writing unit
                  > tests as you go".

                  Ron,

                  Do I really need to invent "writing unit tests as you go"? Could I just
                  adopt TDD?

                  GB.


                  >
                  > Ron Jeffries
                  > www.XProgramming.com
                  > www.xprogramming.com/blog
                  > The greatest mistake we make is living in constant fear that we will make
                  > one.
                  > -- John Maxwell
                  >
                  >
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                • Ron Jeffries
                  Hello, Gary. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 11:54:35 AM, you ... Of course. The point is that Scrum //requires// that you observe issues and change
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                    Hello, Gary. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 11:54:35 AM, you
                    wrote:

                    >> Scrum is based on the notion of "Inspect and Adapt". You're supposed
                    >> to notice what is going on. For example, you notice that the code
                    >> doesn't work or is fragile under change. You invent "writing unit
                    >> tests as you go".

                    > Do I really need to invent "writing unit tests as you go"? Could I just
                    > adopt TDD?

                    Of course. The point is that Scrum //requires// that you observe
                    issues and change practices to fix them. It is helpful if you've
                    heard of some ideas before so you don't have to make everything up.

                    But it isn't necessary in principle: In principle, a Scrum team has
                    to keep adapting until things work, even if they have never before
                    heard of the practice that ultimately solves their problem.

                    In practice it is useful to have a starting point.

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    www.xprogramming.com/blog
                    What is your dream? And knowing this, what have you
                    done to work towards realizing it today? -- Les Brown
                  • Adam Sroka
                    On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:49 AM, Ron Jeffries ... Most of us learned it from Kent s book (You were actually there.) In Kent s book (first edition) standups are
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                      On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:49 AM, Ron Jeffries
                      <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                      > Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      >> (And standup meetings are not XP canon...)
                      >
                      > They sure as heck were were I learned XP.

                      Most of us learned it from Kent's book (You were actually there.) In
                      Kent's book (first edition) standups are mentioned in passing, but
                      aren't one of the original twelve enumerated practices.

                      I have noted in the past that standups are a useful barometer of an XP
                      team's health. When things are going well they feel redundant. After
                      all, everyone already knows what is going on - we've been talking
                      about it all day. When things are going badly they have a tendency to
                      get hijacked with stuff that doesn't belong in the standup which is a
                      good indication that there is a deficit of normal communication.
                    • Robert Watkins
                      ... OTH, precisely because Scrum lacks the technical practices, it is applicable to domains outside of software development. Hence stories like people using
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                        On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 1:24 AM, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:
                        > Cenk Çivici wrote:
                        >
                        >> I hear a lot about XP + Scrum. If XP is really the superset what is XP
                        >> + Scrum ? XP ? :)
                        >
                        > XP's project model got borrowed from Scrum - sorting features in business
                        > order
                        > with regular iterations. (And standup meetings are not XP canon...)
                        >
                        > Scrum is XP without all the technical practices. That makes it, in my humble
                        > experience, worse than useless. What's the point of frequent releases if
                        > nobody's writing unit tests as they go?

                        OTH, precisely because Scrum lacks the technical practices, it is
                        applicable to domains outside of software development. Hence stories
                        like people using Scrum to manage building construction, etc.

                        Scrum is a project management methodology. The target market is
                        project managers, many of whom aren't developers by background. For an
                        organisation that does non-software projects (as well as software
                        projects), then selling Scrum as the overall project management
                        methodology, and Scrum+XP for software, is a strong pitch.

                        --
                        "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
                        Robert Watkins http://twasink.net/ robertdw@...
                      • Michael James
                        ... As do I when I train ScrumMasters. Scrum is a *management* framework only. To me it s *good* news that Scrum leads to companies bringing in XP
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                          > Yes. Interestingly, both Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland make
                          > strong mention of XP practices in their presentations.

                          As do I when I train ScrumMasters. Scrum is a
                          *management* framework only. To me it's *good*
                          news that Scrum leads to companies bringing in
                          XP consultants. Scrum's for bringing problems
                          to the surface so people like you are recruited
                          to help solve them.

                          If your company can just start doing XP overnight, I'd
                          say skip Scrum and go straight to XP.

                          Other teams need to renegotiate how they work with their
                          business stakeholders before anyone will give them room
                          to do XP.

                          It's sometimes hard to convince a micromanager to let
                          us spend half our effort (initially) on learning to write
                          tests, let two programmers work together on one
                          workstation, etc. Think of Scrum as a way to get
                          those people out of your hair so you have a better
                          shot at doing XP.

                          --mj
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