Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [XP] Miss Ron Jeffries TDD Projects

Expand Messages
  • Ron Jeffries
    Hello, Israel. On Thursday, December 25, 2008, at 11:17:07 AM, you ... Why not? I would say that in the past five years, over 90 percent of my work has been
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 25, 2008
      Hello, Israel. On Thursday, December 25, 2008, at 11:17:07 AM, you
      wrote:

      > An XP guy teaching CSM courses?

      Why not? I would say that in the past five years, over 90 percent of
      my work has been helping Scrum teams actually get backlog items
      done.

      Jeff Sutherland himself (co-creator of Scrum) says that all the
      high-performance Scrum teams he has ever seen were using XP-style
      practices.

      What makes good software is what you do, not what you call what you
      do.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      www.xprogramming.com/blog
      Do only what is necessary. Keep only what you need.
    • Cory Foy
      Hi Mike, ... I m near Tampa, FL. -- Cory Foy http://www.cornetdesign.com http://www.agileflorida.com
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 25, 2008
        Hi Mike,

        Mike Coon wrote:
        > Where are you located? I have some folks that need training too - including
        > me.

        I'm near Tampa, FL.

        --
        Cory Foy
        http://www.cornetdesign.com
        http://www.agileflorida.com
      • Joshua Kerievsky
        On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Ron Jeffries ... Ron, does your course offer that newfangled exam I ve been hearing about? And if so, does it examine people
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 26, 2008
          On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Ron Jeffries
          <ronjeffries@...>wrote:

          > Hardly. XP is a superset of Scrum. I've been a Certified ScrumMaster
          > for years. Now I'm a Certified Scrum Trainer. And our course
          > addresses, among other things, how to use XP practices inside Scrum.


          Ron, does your course offer that newfangled exam I've been hearing about?
          And if so, does it examine people on their knowledge of just Scrum or Scrum
          + XP?

          Also, did the new exam have anything to do with your decision to become a
          CST?

          Like Jim Shore, we sure do find a lot of our work is cleaning up Scrum-based
          processes. Maybe you can help people get started on the right foot -- i.e.
          that superset you were mentioning above.

          --
          best regards,
          jk

          Industrial Logic, Inc.
          Joshua Kerievsky
          Founder, Extreme Programmer & Coach
          http://industriallogic.com
          866-540-8336 (toll free)
          510-540-8336 (phone)
          Berkeley, California

          Learn Code Smells, Refactoring and TDD at
          http://industriallogic.com/elearning


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Cenk Çivici
          I hear a lot about XP + Scrum. If XP is really the superset what is XP + Scrum ? XP ? :) On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 6:32 AM, Joshua Kerievsky
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
            I hear a lot about XP + Scrum. If XP is really the superset what is XP
            + Scrum ? XP ? :)

            On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 6:32 AM, Joshua Kerievsky
            <joshua@...> wrote:
            > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Ron Jeffries
            > <ronjeffries@...>wrote:
            >
            >> Hardly. XP is a superset of Scrum. I've been a Certified ScrumMaster
            >> for years. Now I'm a Certified Scrum Trainer. And our course
            >> addresses, among other things, how to use XP practices inside Scrum.
            >
            > Ron, does your course offer that newfangled exam I've been hearing about?
            > And if so, does it examine people on their knowledge of just Scrum or Scrum
            > + XP?
            >
            > Also, did the new exam have anything to do with your decision to become a
            > CST?
            >
            > Like Jim Shore, we sure do find a lot of our work is cleaning up Scrum-based
            > processes. Maybe you can help people get started on the right foot -- i.e.
            > that superset you were mentioning above.
            >
            > --
            > best regards,
            > jk
            >
            > Industrial Logic, Inc.
            > Joshua Kerievsky
            > Founder, Extreme Programmer & Coach
            > http://industriallogic.com
            > 866-540-8336 (toll free)
            > 510-540-8336 (phone)
            > Berkeley, California
            >
            > Learn Code Smells, Refactoring and TDD at
            > http://industriallogic.com/elearning
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • Ron Jeffries
            Hello, Joshua. Happy new year! On Friday, December 26, 2008, at 11:32:50 PM, you ... The exam, as I understand it, will be required of all new CSMs, starting
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
              Hello, Joshua. Happy new year!

              On Friday, December 26, 2008, at 11:32:50 PM, you
              wrote:

              > Ron, does your course offer that newfangled exam I've been hearing about?
              > And if so, does it examine people on their knowledge of just Scrum or Scrum
              > + XP?

              The exam, as I understand it, will be required of all new CSMs,
              starting sometime in the early part of the year. I have not seen it
              yet, don't even know how it will be administered, so I'm not sure
              just how I'll handle it at course time.

              > Also, did the new exam have anything to do with your decision to become a
              > CST?

              No. Actually the opportunity was offered to me, and it seemed like
              kind of a honor, recognizing my great mass and thickness, so I went
              for it. And, certainly, a public course is a nice way to get the
              word out and maybe even make a few bucks.

              > Like Jim Shore, we sure do find a lot of our work is cleaning up Scrum-based
              > processes. Maybe you can help people get started on the right foot -- i.e.
              > that superset you were mentioning above.

              Yes. Interestingly, both Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland make
              strong mention of XP practices in their presentations.

              I'm not sure what the root causes of people's difficulty are, but
              just continue to do my best to help people see what will work, and
              why. Whether they choose to do what will work is up to them ... and
              oddly, many seem almost consciously to choose not to try to make
              things better.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              www.xprogramming.com/blog
              Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the correct answer?
            • Dave Rooney
              ... If I ve asked this before, please forgive the repetition. What is fundamentally different between XP and Scrum + XP Practices ? I must just be somewhat
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                Ron Jeffries wrote:
                > Yes. Interestingly, both Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland make
                > strong mention of XP practices in their presentations.
                >

                If I've asked this before, please forgive the repetition. What is
                fundamentally different between XP and "Scrum + XP Practices"? I must
                just be somewhat thick, 'cus I'm having a hard time figuring that out.

                The only answer I can come up with is that Scrum is an easier "sell".
                If that's the case, then adding the XP practices on top sounds an awful
                lot like upselling.

                > I'm not sure what the root causes of people's difficulty are, but
                > just continue to do my best to help people see what will work, and
                > why. Whether they choose to do what will work is up to them ... and
                > oddly, many seem almost consciously to choose not to try to make
                > things better.
                >

                Fair enough, but you've been saying that since long before you were
                bestowed with CSx after your name! ;)

                --

                Dave Rooney
                Mayford Technologies
                "Helping you become AGILE... to SURVIVE and THRIVE!"
                http://www.mayford.ca
                http://practicalagility.blogspot.com
                Twitter: daverooneyca
              • Ron Jeffries
                Hello, Dave. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 7:16:19 AM, you ... Existence of the ScrumMaster role; Existence of the Scrum of Scrums practice; Detailed
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                  Hello, Dave. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 7:16:19 AM, you
                  wrote:

                  > Ron Jeffries wrote:
                  >> Yes. Interestingly, both Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland make
                  >> strong mention of XP practices in their presentations.

                  > If I've asked this before, please forgive the repetition. What is
                  > fundamentally different between XP and "Scrum + XP Practices"? I must
                  > just be somewhat thick, 'cus I'm having a hard time figuring that out.

                  Existence of the ScrumMaster role;
                  Existence of the Scrum of Scrums practice;
                  Detailed differences in planning.

                  > The only answer I can come up with is that Scrum is an easier "sell".
                  > If that's the case, then adding the XP practices on top sounds an awful
                  > lot like upselling.

                  I guess, except that no one gets any money ...

                  >> I'm not sure what the root causes of people's difficulty are, but
                  >> just continue to do my best to help people see what will work, and
                  >> why. Whether they choose to do what will work is up to them ... and
                  >> oddly, many seem almost consciously to choose not to try to make
                  >> things better.

                  > Fair enough, but you've been saying that since long before you were
                  > bestowed with CSx after your name! ;)

                  I would hope so. I'm the same person. :)

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  www.xprogramming.com/blog
                  Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
                  The important thing is to not stop questioning. --Albert Einstein
                • Phlip
                  ... XP s project model got borrowed from Scrum - sorting features in business order with regular iterations. (And standup meetings are not XP canon...) Scrum
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                    Cenk Çivici wrote:

                    > I hear a lot about XP + Scrum. If XP is really the superset what is XP
                    > + Scrum ? XP ? :)

                    XP's project model got borrowed from Scrum - sorting features in business order
                    with regular iterations. (And standup meetings are not XP canon...)

                    Scrum is XP without all the technical practices. That makes it, in my humble
                    experience, worse than useless. What's the point of frequent releases if
                    nobody's writing unit tests as they go?

                    --
                    Phlip
                  • Ron Jeffries
                    Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you ... They sure as heck were were I learned XP. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                      Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you
                      wrote:

                      > (And standup meetings are not XP canon...)

                      They sure as heck were were I learned XP.

                      Ron Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      www.xprogramming.com/blog
                      Q: How do we get to Aspen?
                      A: Climb to the top of that hill.
                      Q: That is so dumb: Aspen is in a valley.
                      A: OK.
                    • Ron Jeffries
                      Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you ... Scrum is based on the notion of Inspect and Adapt . You re supposed to notice what is
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                        Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you
                        wrote:

                        > Scrum is XP without all the technical practices. That makes it, in my humble
                        > experience, worse than useless. What's the point of frequent releases if
                        > nobody's writing unit tests as they go?

                        Scrum is based on the notion of "Inspect and Adapt". You're supposed
                        to notice what is going on. For example, you notice that the code
                        doesn't work or is fragile under change. You invent "writing unit
                        tests as you go".

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        www.xprogramming.com/blog
                        The greatest mistake we make is living in constant fear that we will make one.
                        -- John Maxwell
                      • Gary Brown
                        ... From: Ron Jeffries To: Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [XP]
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
                          To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 9:51 AM
                          Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Miss Ron Jeffries TDD Projects


                          > Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          >> Scrum is XP without all the technical practices. That makes it, in my
                          >> humble
                          >> experience, worse than useless. What's the point of frequent releases if
                          >> nobody's writing unit tests as they go?
                          >
                          > Scrum is based on the notion of "Inspect and Adapt". You're supposed
                          > to notice what is going on. For example, you notice that the code
                          > doesn't work or is fragile under change. You invent "writing unit
                          > tests as you go".

                          Ron,

                          Do I really need to invent "writing unit tests as you go"? Could I just
                          adopt TDD?

                          GB.


                          >
                          > Ron Jeffries
                          > www.XProgramming.com
                          > www.xprogramming.com/blog
                          > The greatest mistake we make is living in constant fear that we will make
                          > one.
                          > -- John Maxwell
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                          >
                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                          >
                          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Ron Jeffries
                          Hello, Gary. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 11:54:35 AM, you ... Of course. The point is that Scrum //requires// that you observe issues and change
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                            Hello, Gary. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 11:54:35 AM, you
                            wrote:

                            >> Scrum is based on the notion of "Inspect and Adapt". You're supposed
                            >> to notice what is going on. For example, you notice that the code
                            >> doesn't work or is fragile under change. You invent "writing unit
                            >> tests as you go".

                            > Do I really need to invent "writing unit tests as you go"? Could I just
                            > adopt TDD?

                            Of course. The point is that Scrum //requires// that you observe
                            issues and change practices to fix them. It is helpful if you've
                            heard of some ideas before so you don't have to make everything up.

                            But it isn't necessary in principle: In principle, a Scrum team has
                            to keep adapting until things work, even if they have never before
                            heard of the practice that ultimately solves their problem.

                            In practice it is useful to have a starting point.

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            www.xprogramming.com/blog
                            What is your dream? And knowing this, what have you
                            done to work towards realizing it today? -- Les Brown
                          • Adam Sroka
                            On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:49 AM, Ron Jeffries ... Most of us learned it from Kent s book (You were actually there.) In Kent s book (first edition) standups are
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                              On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:49 AM, Ron Jeffries
                              <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                              > Hello, Phlip. On Saturday, December 27, 2008, at 10:24:48 AM, you
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >> (And standup meetings are not XP canon...)
                              >
                              > They sure as heck were were I learned XP.

                              Most of us learned it from Kent's book (You were actually there.) In
                              Kent's book (first edition) standups are mentioned in passing, but
                              aren't one of the original twelve enumerated practices.

                              I have noted in the past that standups are a useful barometer of an XP
                              team's health. When things are going well they feel redundant. After
                              all, everyone already knows what is going on - we've been talking
                              about it all day. When things are going badly they have a tendency to
                              get hijacked with stuff that doesn't belong in the standup which is a
                              good indication that there is a deficit of normal communication.
                            • Robert Watkins
                              ... OTH, precisely because Scrum lacks the technical practices, it is applicable to domains outside of software development. Hence stories like people using
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                                On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 1:24 AM, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:
                                > Cenk Çivici wrote:
                                >
                                >> I hear a lot about XP + Scrum. If XP is really the superset what is XP
                                >> + Scrum ? XP ? :)
                                >
                                > XP's project model got borrowed from Scrum - sorting features in business
                                > order
                                > with regular iterations. (And standup meetings are not XP canon...)
                                >
                                > Scrum is XP without all the technical practices. That makes it, in my humble
                                > experience, worse than useless. What's the point of frequent releases if
                                > nobody's writing unit tests as they go?

                                OTH, precisely because Scrum lacks the technical practices, it is
                                applicable to domains outside of software development. Hence stories
                                like people using Scrum to manage building construction, etc.

                                Scrum is a project management methodology. The target market is
                                project managers, many of whom aren't developers by background. For an
                                organisation that does non-software projects (as well as software
                                projects), then selling Scrum as the overall project management
                                methodology, and Scrum+XP for software, is a strong pitch.

                                --
                                "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
                                Robert Watkins http://twasink.net/ robertdw@...
                              • Michael James
                                ... As do I when I train ScrumMasters. Scrum is a *management* framework only. To me it s *good* news that Scrum leads to companies bringing in XP
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 27, 2008
                                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:

                                  > Yes. Interestingly, both Ken Schwaber and Jeff Sutherland make
                                  > strong mention of XP practices in their presentations.

                                  As do I when I train ScrumMasters. Scrum is a
                                  *management* framework only. To me it's *good*
                                  news that Scrum leads to companies bringing in
                                  XP consultants. Scrum's for bringing problems
                                  to the surface so people like you are recruited
                                  to help solve them.

                                  If your company can just start doing XP overnight, I'd
                                  say skip Scrum and go straight to XP.

                                  Other teams need to renegotiate how they work with their
                                  business stakeholders before anyone will give them room
                                  to do XP.

                                  It's sometimes hard to convince a micromanager to let
                                  us spend half our effort (initially) on learning to write
                                  tests, let two programmers work together on one
                                  workstation, etc. Think of Scrum as a way to get
                                  those people out of your hair so you have a better
                                  shot at doing XP.

                                  --mj
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.