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Re: [XP] Agile toolset questions (particularly code inspections....)

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  • agileprog
    This was exactly my reaction as well. Adam, It seems that this is the spirit you ll find here. After all the very nature of this group favors Individuals and
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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      This was exactly my reaction as well. Adam, It seems that this is the
      spirit you'll find here. After all the very nature of this group favors
      "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools".

      Interestingly, in the last few days I've been following a blog post
      <http://javadots.blogspot.com/2008/11/mythbusting-part-3-inherent-parado\
      x.html> where the author criticizes static structural analysis tools.
      This led to an intense discussion.

      The discussion there is somewhat analogous to this one. How much do we
      trust tools? Are we willing to accept the fact that human reasoning
      cannot be replaced by an automatic tool?

      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Adam Sroka" <adam.sroka@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
      >
      > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A tabmow99@... wrote:
      > > Hi all,
      > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
      > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted addressed.
      One
      > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
      > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible, etc)
      and I'm
      > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it has a
      few
      > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was
      just
      > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what tool
      for code
      > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > Craig.
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • agileprog
      A minor correction: *Craig*, It seems that ... ...
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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        A minor correction: "*Craig*, It seems that ..."


        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "agileprog" <alexlevin@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > This was exactly my reaction as well. Adam, It seems that this is the
        > spirit you'll find here. After all the very nature of this group favors
        > "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools".
        >
        > Interestingly, in the last few days I've been following a blog post
        >
        <http://javadots.blogspot.com/2008/11/mythbusting-part-3-inherent-parado\
        > x.html> where the author criticizes static structural analysis tools.
        > This led to an intense discussion.
        >
        > The discussion there is somewhat analogous to this one. How much do we
        > trust tools? Are we willing to accept the fact that human reasoning
        > cannot be replaced by an automatic tool?
        >
        > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Adam Sroka" <adam.sroka@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
        > >
        > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A tabmow99@ wrote:
        > > > Hi all,
        > > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
        > > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted addressed.
        > One
        > > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
        > > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible, etc)
        > and I'm
        > > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it has a
        > few
        > > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was
        > just
        > > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what tool
        > for code
        > > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
        > > >
        > > > Thanks,
        > > > Craig.
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Craig A
        lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they ve used? ... [Non-text
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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          lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
          programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've used?


          On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:

          > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
          >
          >
          > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A <tabmow99@...<tabmow99%40gmail.com>>
          > wrote:
          > > Hi all,
          > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
          > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted addressed. One
          > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
          > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible, etc) and
          > I'm
          > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it has a few
          > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was just
          > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what tool for
          > code
          > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Craig.
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Bogus
          In addition to pairing, frequently rotating pairs can mean that most of the teams sees most of the code. I feel one should have discussions about what is
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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            In addition to pairing, frequently rotating pairs can mean that most
            of the teams sees most of the code.

            I feel one should have discussions about what is "good" code only
            with code in front of them. As the different pairs decided the own
            mini "good code standards" with rotation I find that teams converge to
            a "single good code standard". This combined with shared code
            formatter settings helps keep the disagreements about productive
            issues rather then stylistic issues.

            I like to run static tools as part of a Continuous Integration
            process. I like Simian for detecting duplication. If you keep a big
            visible chart of its metrics the team can decided when enough is
            enough and do something about it.

            http://www.redhillconsulting.com.au/products/simian/overview.html


            Dave


            On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 8:47 AM, Craig A <tabmow99@...> wrote:
            > lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
            > programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've used?
            >
            > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
            >
            >> Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
            >>
            >>
            >> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A
            >> <tabmow99@...<tabmow99%40gmail.com>>
            >> wrote:
            >> > Hi all,
            >> > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
            >> > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted addressed. One
            >> > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
            >> > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible, etc) and
            >> I'm
            >> > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it has a few
            >> > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was just
            >> > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what tool for
            >> code
            >> > inspections) other folks were using out there?
            >> >
            >> > Thanks,
            >> > Craig.
            >> >
            >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >>
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            --
            Dave's Definitions: Morning, is after I've slept for more than four
            hours. Lunch is the second meal of the day no matter the hour of
            consumption. A long drive is one longer then you have last slept.
            Ineffable, if you don't understand I couldn't possibly explain it.
          • Ron Jeffries
            Hello, Craig. On Tuesday, December 2, 2008, at 8:47:20 AM, you ... Isn t code inspection a human process, not a tool process? Ron Jeffries
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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              Hello, Craig. On Tuesday, December 2, 2008, at 8:47:20 AM, you
              wrote:

              > lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
              > programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've used?

              Isn't code inspection a human process, not a tool process?

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              www.xprogramming.com/blog
              Think! -- Aretha Franklin
            • Steven Gordon
              ... I believe that process change and augmentation (including the introduction of new tools) should be driven by the problems currently being experiences. Why
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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                On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:47 AM, Craig A <tabmow99@...> wrote:
                > lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
                > programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've used?

                I believe that process change and augmentation (including the
                introduction of new tools) should be driven by the problems currently
                being experiences. Why waste time and effort (and possibly disrupt a
                good rhythm) to fix something that is not even broken? So, what code
                quality problems is your team experiencing?

                What does the team believe the root causes of these specific problems
                are? Was the problematic code written by pair programming doing test
                driven development? If not, why not apply those practices before
                looking to a tool to be a silver bullet? If so, was it always a
                single pair that worked on each problematic section code? If not, why
                not try switching pairs more often? Was YAGNI followed? Was
                refactoring done on every TDD cycle?

                Only if after root cause analysis does the team honestly believe they
                are following the practices as well as they can should they look to a
                tool to help (unless the team believes the tool is essential for doing
                root cause analysis).

                Steven Gordon
              • Craig A
                It is a human process, and we do have automated tools doing static analysis, but using a tool helps facilitate the human process of doing quick code
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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                  It is a human process, and we do have automated tools doing static analysis,
                  but using a tool helps facilitate the human process of doing quick code
                  inspections. A good tool doesn't have to introduce a lot of overhead.


                  >
                  > Isn't code inspection a human process, not a tool process?
                  >
                  > Ron Jeffries
                  > www.XProgramming.com
                  > www.xprogramming.com/blog
                  > Think! -- Aretha Franklin
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • agileprog
                  Again, not a tool but human process. How about setting up a coding Dojo in your team/company? This provides the settings for sharing the know-how and
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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                    Again, not a tool but human process. How about setting up a coding
                    Dojo in your team/company? This provides the settings for sharing the
                    know-how and discussing code quality in a relaxed (in the sense of:
                    not related to an actual project) environment.

                    http://www.codingdojo.org



                    --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Craig A" <tabmow99@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
                    > programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've
                    used?
                    >
                    >
                    > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A
                    <tabmow99@...<tabmow99%40gmail.com>>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > Hi all,
                    > > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
                    > > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted
                    addressed. One
                    > > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
                    > > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible,
                    etc) and
                    > > I'm
                    > > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it
                    has a few
                    > > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was
                    just
                    > > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what
                    tool for
                    > > code
                    > > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks,
                    > > > Craig.
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Bill Michell
                    For Java, I use Findbugs. Might not be quite what you re after, but as a free tool for static code analysis with good Eclipse and Ant integration, it is great.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 3, 2008
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                      For Java, I use Findbugs. Might not be quite what you're after, but as a
                      free tool for static code analysis with good Eclipse and Ant
                      integration, it is great.

                      Occasional false positives, but it was Findbugs that got me to research
                      why the double-checked locking idiom for lazy instantiation was a bad
                      idea...

                      Just like pairing with the combined wisdom of thousands of experts, all
                      the time.


                      --
                      Bill Michell
                      Development Team Leader, Broadcast Platforms, BBC FM&T (Journalism).

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig A
                      Sent: 02 December 2008 13:47
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [XP] Agile toolset questions (particularly code
                      inspections....)

                      lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
                      programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've
                      used?


                      On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...>
                      wrote:

                      > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
                      >
                      >
                      > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A
                      <tabmow99@...<tabmow99%40gmail.com>>
                      > wrote:
                      > > Hi all,
                      > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
                      > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted addressed.
                      One
                      > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
                      > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible, etc)
                      and
                      > I'm
                      > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it has a
                      few
                      > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was
                      just
                      > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what tool
                      for
                      > code
                      > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
                      > >
                      > > Thanks,
                      > > Craig.
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                    • Craig A
                      Appreciate the info - I m aware of coding dojo s but I don t think it would work for our purposes here - we have a large team which is a mix of employees and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 3, 2008
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                        Appreciate the info - I'm aware of coding dojo's but I don't think it would
                        work for our purposes here - we have a large team which is a mix of
                        employees and external contractors, and all very geographically diverse.
                        We could improve things for the employees, but tough to mandate something
                        like this on external contractors, where part of the concern is. But a
                        valid idea.

                        Thanks.

                        --
                        Craig.

                        On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:06 AM, agileprog <alexlevin@...> wrote:

                        > Again, not a tool but human process. How about setting up a coding
                        > Dojo in your team/company? This provides the settings for sharing the
                        > know-how and discussing code quality in a relaxed (in the sense of:
                        > not related to an actual project) environment.
                        >
                        > http://www.codingdojo.org
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com<extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > "Craig A" <tabmow99@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
                        > > programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've
                        > used?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A
                        > <tabmow99@...<tabmow99%40gmail.com>>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > > Hi all,
                        > > > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
                        > > > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted
                        > addressed. One
                        > > > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
                        > > > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible,
                        > etc) and
                        > > > I'm
                        > > > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it
                        > has a few
                        > > > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was
                        > just
                        > > > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what
                        > tool for
                        > > > code
                        > > > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thanks,
                        > > > > Craig.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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