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Re: Agile toolset questions (particularly code inspections....)

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  • Jeff Grigg
    ... We use pair programming. (Sorry, but I just had to say it. ;-) And it s true: We do pair programming instead of formal after-the-fact code reviews. It
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 1, 2008
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      --- "Craig A" <tabmow99@...> wrote:
      > [...], so I was just wondering what types of toolsets
      > (or more specifically: what tool for code inspections)
      > other folks were using out there?

      We use pair programming.


      (Sorry, but I just had to say it. ;-) And it's true: We do pair
      programming instead of formal after-the-fact code reviews. It works
      for us! ;->
    • Adam Sroka
      Uh... you CC d the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 1, 2008
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        Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.

        On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A <tabmow99@...> wrote:
        > Hi all,
        > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
        > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted addressed. One
        > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
        > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible, etc) and I'm
        > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it has a few
        > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was just
        > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what tool for code
        > inspections) other folks were using out there?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Craig.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
      • agileprog
        This was exactly my reaction as well. Adam, It seems that this is the spirit you ll find here. After all the very nature of this group favors Individuals and
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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          This was exactly my reaction as well. Adam, It seems that this is the
          spirit you'll find here. After all the very nature of this group favors
          "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools".

          Interestingly, in the last few days I've been following a blog post
          <http://javadots.blogspot.com/2008/11/mythbusting-part-3-inherent-parado\
          x.html> where the author criticizes static structural analysis tools.
          This led to an intense discussion.

          The discussion there is somewhat analogous to this one. How much do we
          trust tools? Are we willing to accept the fact that human reasoning
          cannot be replaced by an automatic tool?

          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Adam Sroka" <adam.sroka@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
          >
          > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A tabmow99@... wrote:
          > > Hi all,
          > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
          > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted addressed.
          One
          > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
          > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible, etc)
          and I'm
          > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it has a
          few
          > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was
          just
          > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what tool
          for code
          > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Craig.
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • agileprog
          A minor correction: *Craig*, It seems that ... ...
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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            A minor correction: "*Craig*, It seems that ..."


            --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "agileprog" <alexlevin@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > This was exactly my reaction as well. Adam, It seems that this is the
            > spirit you'll find here. After all the very nature of this group favors
            > "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools".
            >
            > Interestingly, in the last few days I've been following a blog post
            >
            <http://javadots.blogspot.com/2008/11/mythbusting-part-3-inherent-parado\
            > x.html> where the author criticizes static structural analysis tools.
            > This led to an intense discussion.
            >
            > The discussion there is somewhat analogous to this one. How much do we
            > trust tools? Are we willing to accept the fact that human reasoning
            > cannot be replaced by an automatic tool?
            >
            > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Adam Sroka" <adam.sroka@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
            > >
            > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A tabmow99@ wrote:
            > > > Hi all,
            > > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
            > > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted addressed.
            > One
            > > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
            > > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible, etc)
            > and I'm
            > > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it has a
            > few
            > > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was
            > just
            > > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what tool
            > for code
            > > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
            > > >
            > > > Thanks,
            > > > Craig.
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Craig A
            lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they ve used? ... [Non-text
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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              lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
              programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've used?


              On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:

              > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
              >
              >
              > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A <tabmow99@...<tabmow99%40gmail.com>>
              > wrote:
              > > Hi all,
              > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
              > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted addressed. One
              > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
              > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible, etc) and
              > I'm
              > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it has a few
              > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was just
              > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what tool for
              > code
              > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > > Craig.
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Bogus
              In addition to pairing, frequently rotating pairs can mean that most of the teams sees most of the code. I feel one should have discussions about what is
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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                In addition to pairing, frequently rotating pairs can mean that most
                of the teams sees most of the code.

                I feel one should have discussions about what is "good" code only
                with code in front of them. As the different pairs decided the own
                mini "good code standards" with rotation I find that teams converge to
                a "single good code standard". This combined with shared code
                formatter settings helps keep the disagreements about productive
                issues rather then stylistic issues.

                I like to run static tools as part of a Continuous Integration
                process. I like Simian for detecting duplication. If you keep a big
                visible chart of its metrics the team can decided when enough is
                enough and do something about it.

                http://www.redhillconsulting.com.au/products/simian/overview.html


                Dave


                On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 8:47 AM, Craig A <tabmow99@...> wrote:
                > lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
                > programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've used?
                >
                > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                >
                >> Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
                >>
                >>
                >> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A
                >> <tabmow99@...<tabmow99%40gmail.com>>
                >> wrote:
                >> > Hi all,
                >> > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
                >> > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted addressed. One
                >> > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
                >> > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible, etc) and
                >> I'm
                >> > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it has a few
                >> > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was just
                >> > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what tool for
                >> code
                >> > inspections) other folks were using out there?
                >> >
                >> > Thanks,
                >> > Craig.
                >> >
                >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                >>
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                --
                Dave's Definitions: Morning, is after I've slept for more than four
                hours. Lunch is the second meal of the day no matter the hour of
                consumption. A long drive is one longer then you have last slept.
                Ineffable, if you don't understand I couldn't possibly explain it.
              • Ron Jeffries
                Hello, Craig. On Tuesday, December 2, 2008, at 8:47:20 AM, you ... Isn t code inspection a human process, not a tool process? Ron Jeffries
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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                  Hello, Craig. On Tuesday, December 2, 2008, at 8:47:20 AM, you
                  wrote:

                  > lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
                  > programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've used?

                  Isn't code inspection a human process, not a tool process?

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  www.xprogramming.com/blog
                  Think! -- Aretha Franklin
                • Steven Gordon
                  ... I believe that process change and augmentation (including the introduction of new tools) should be driven by the problems currently being experiences. Why
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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                    On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:47 AM, Craig A <tabmow99@...> wrote:
                    > lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
                    > programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've used?

                    I believe that process change and augmentation (including the
                    introduction of new tools) should be driven by the problems currently
                    being experiences. Why waste time and effort (and possibly disrupt a
                    good rhythm) to fix something that is not even broken? So, what code
                    quality problems is your team experiencing?

                    What does the team believe the root causes of these specific problems
                    are? Was the problematic code written by pair programming doing test
                    driven development? If not, why not apply those practices before
                    looking to a tool to be a silver bullet? If so, was it always a
                    single pair that worked on each problematic section code? If not, why
                    not try switching pairs more often? Was YAGNI followed? Was
                    refactoring done on every TDD cycle?

                    Only if after root cause analysis does the team honestly believe they
                    are following the practices as well as they can should they look to a
                    tool to help (unless the team believes the tool is essential for doing
                    root cause analysis).

                    Steven Gordon
                  • Craig A
                    It is a human process, and we do have automated tools doing static analysis, but using a tool helps facilitate the human process of doing quick code
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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                      It is a human process, and we do have automated tools doing static analysis,
                      but using a tool helps facilitate the human process of doing quick code
                      inspections. A good tool doesn't have to introduce a lot of overhead.


                      >
                      > Isn't code inspection a human process, not a tool process?
                      >
                      > Ron Jeffries
                      > www.XProgramming.com
                      > www.xprogramming.com/blog
                      > Think! -- Aretha Franklin
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • agileprog
                      Again, not a tool but human process. How about setting up a coding Dojo in your team/company? This provides the settings for sharing the know-how and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 2, 2008
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                        Again, not a tool but human process. How about setting up a coding
                        Dojo in your team/company? This provides the settings for sharing the
                        know-how and discussing code quality in a relaxed (in the sense of:
                        not related to an actual project) environment.

                        http://www.codingdojo.org



                        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Craig A" <tabmow99@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
                        > programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've
                        used?
                        >
                        >
                        > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A
                        <tabmow99@...<tabmow99%40gmail.com>>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > Hi all,
                        > > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
                        > > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted
                        addressed. One
                        > > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
                        > > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible,
                        etc) and
                        > > I'm
                        > > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it
                        has a few
                        > > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was
                        just
                        > > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what
                        tool for
                        > > code
                        > > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks,
                        > > > Craig.
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Bill Michell
                        For Java, I use Findbugs. Might not be quite what you re after, but as a free tool for static code analysis with good Eclipse and Ant integration, it is great.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 3, 2008
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                          For Java, I use Findbugs. Might not be quite what you're after, but as a
                          free tool for static code analysis with good Eclipse and Ant
                          integration, it is great.

                          Occasional false positives, but it was Findbugs that got me to research
                          why the double-checked locking idiom for lazy instantiation was a bad
                          idea...

                          Just like pairing with the combined wisdom of thousands of experts, all
                          the time.


                          --
                          Bill Michell
                          Development Team Leader, Broadcast Platforms, BBC FM&T (Journalism).

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Craig A
                          Sent: 02 December 2008 13:47
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [XP] Agile toolset questions (particularly code
                          inspections....)

                          lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
                          programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've
                          used?


                          On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...>
                          wrote:

                          > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
                          >
                          >
                          > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A
                          <tabmow99@...<tabmow99%40gmail.com>>
                          > wrote:
                          > > Hi all,
                          > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
                          > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted addressed.
                          One
                          > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
                          > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible, etc)
                          and
                          > I'm
                          > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it has a
                          few
                          > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was
                          just
                          > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what tool
                          for
                          > code
                          > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
                          > >
                          > > Thanks,
                          > > Craig.
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                        • Craig A
                          Appreciate the info - I m aware of coding dojo s but I don t think it would work for our purposes here - we have a large team which is a mix of employees and
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 3, 2008
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                            Appreciate the info - I'm aware of coding dojo's but I don't think it would
                            work for our purposes here - we have a large team which is a mix of
                            employees and external contractors, and all very geographically diverse.
                            We could improve things for the employees, but tough to mandate something
                            like this on external contractors, where part of the concern is. But a
                            valid idea.

                            Thanks.

                            --
                            Craig.

                            On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:06 AM, agileprog <alexlevin@...> wrote:

                            > Again, not a tool but human process. How about setting up a coding
                            > Dojo in your team/company? This provides the settings for sharing the
                            > know-how and discussing code quality in a relaxed (in the sense of:
                            > not related to an actual project) environment.
                            >
                            > http://www.codingdojo.org
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com<extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > "Craig A" <tabmow99@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > lol... Good point - my mistake. Sorry. So *other* than pair
                            > > programming, does anyone have any suggestions on what tools they've
                            > used?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Adam Sroka <adam.sroka@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > Uh... you CC'd the XP list. So, Pair Programming.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Craig A
                            > <tabmow99@...<tabmow99%40gmail.com>>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > > Hi all,
                            > > > > We've been using scrum for a while now, and are investigating a few
                            > > > > different toolsets to solve some of the things we wanted
                            > addressed. One
                            > > > > toolset we've been looking at is the Atlassian toolset (ie. JIRA
                            > > > > w/Greenhopper for story management/etc, Confluence, Crucible,
                            > etc) and
                            > > > I'm
                            > > > > really liking using Crucible for code inspections. However, it
                            > has a few
                            > > > > shortcomings that won't be addressed in the short term, so I was
                            > just
                            > > > > wondering what types of toolsets (or more specifically: what
                            > tool for
                            > > > code
                            > > > > inspections) other folks were using out there?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Thanks,
                            > > > > Craig.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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