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Two thoughts from Swimming trainer education

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  • Markus Gaertner
    Hi, while reading through extreme programming explained, there were two thoughts coming up to my mind gained from the lessons I took 9 years ago when becoming
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 5, 2008
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      Hi,

      while reading through extreme programming explained, there were two thoughts
      coming up to my mind gained from the lessons I took 9 years ago when becoming a
      swimming trainer. I thought these points were relevant to share.

      One thing is about feedback. We were taught that the children need to get very,
      very rapid feedback on their exercise experiences. The time of attendance is 20
      seconds, where valueable feedback can be given according to any mistakes the
      swim motions had. After that time the feedback will be obsolete. The same
      appeals as well for the advices to give someone before sending her into the
      water, like: "mind that the elbow is the most upper point of the arm when
      bringing back the hand".

      The second thing came to my mind while reading chapter 20 - Applying XP, where
      a technical lead was supporting programmers writing automated tests, but never
      used JUnit. My experience here from my swimming trainer education is, that we
      were taught several exercises for gaining coordination abilities. (Gunther
      Frank wrote several editions of a good book here with lots of exercises and
      advices.) I was told to actual get a feeling for the particular level of
      exercise for each exercise by trying them myself in the water before telling my
      trained children to do them. This is motivated due to the fact that not all
      children have the same experience and strength level and in order to get to
      know if my children can manage the particular exercise, one should make the
      experience for himself.

      Hope these are worth sharing.

      Kind regards
      Markus Gärtner
    • Victor
      Hi Markus, ... As written, it reads as a mine field. The how of giving feedback is very important. Some words that come to mind are sensitivity , and
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 5, 2008
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        Hi Markus,

        > ... The time of attendance is 20
        > seconds, where valueable feedback can be given according to any mistakes
        > the
        > swim motions had.

        As written, it reads as a mine field. The "how" of giving feedback is very
        important. Some words that come to mind are "sensitivity", and "catching
        them doing the right thing".

        Another point is that there is a difference between being a trainer and
        being an equal in a productivity team.

        =========================================

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Markus Gaertner" <shino@...>
        To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 5:40 AM
        Subject: [XP] Two thoughts from Swimming trainer education


        > Hi,
        >
        > while reading through extreme programming explained, there were two
        > thoughts
        > coming up to my mind gained from the lessons I took 9 years ago when
        > becoming a
        > swimming trainer. I thought these points were relevant to share.
        >
        > One thing is about feedback. We were taught that the children need to get
        > very,
        > very rapid feedback on their exercise experiences. The time of attendance
        > is 20
        > seconds, where valueable feedback can be given according to any mistakes
        > the
        > swim motions had. After that time the feedback will be obsolete. The same
        > appeals as well for the advices to give someone before sending her into
        > the
        > water, like: "mind that the elbow is the most upper point of the arm when
        > bringing back the hand".
        >
        > The second thing came to my mind while reading chapter 20 - Applying XP,
        > where
        > a technical lead was supporting programmers writing automated tests, but
        > never
        > used JUnit. My experience here from my swimming trainer education is, that
        > we
        > were taught several exercises for gaining coordination abilities. (Gunther
        > Frank wrote several editions of a good book here with lots of exercises
        > and
        > advices.) I was told to actual get a feeling for the particular level of
        > exercise for each exercise by trying them myself in the water before
        > telling my
        > trained children to do them. This is motivated due to the fact that not
        > all
        > children have the same experience and strength level and in order to get
        > to
        > know if my children can manage the particular exercise, one should make
        > the
        > experience for himself.
        >
        > Hope these are worth sharing.
        >
        > Kind regards
        > Markus Gärtner
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Carfield Yim
        Interesting example, and when I was a swimming tutor to get rapid feedback is ask student to perform a simulated swimming at ground, so that we ( the tutor )
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 5, 2008
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          Interesting example, and when I was a swimming tutor to get rapid
          feedback is ask student to perform a "simulated" swimming at ground,
          so that we ( the tutor ) can see the problem of the action clear. Not
          sure which any programming practice is similar to this...

          On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 5:40 PM, Markus Gaertner <shino@...> wrote:
          > Hi,
          >
          > while reading through extreme programming explained, there were two thoughts
          > coming up to my mind gained from the lessons I took 9 years ago when becoming a
          > swimming trainer. I thought these points were relevant to share.
          >
          > One thing is about feedback. We were taught that the children need to get very,
          > very rapid feedback on their exercise experiences. The time of attendance is 20
          > seconds, where valueable feedback can be given according to any mistakes the
          > swim motions had. After that time the feedback will be obsolete. The same
          > appeals as well for the advices to give someone before sending her into the
          > water, like: "mind that the elbow is the most upper point of the arm when
          > bringing back the hand".
          >
          > The second thing came to my mind while reading chapter 20 - Applying XP, where
          > a technical lead was supporting programmers writing automated tests, but never
          > used JUnit. My experience here from my swimming trainer education is, that we
          > were taught several exercises for gaining coordination abilities. (Gunther
          > Frank wrote several editions of a good book here with lots of exercises and
          > advices.) I was told to actual get a feeling for the particular level of
          > exercise for each exercise by trying them myself in the water before telling my
          > trained children to do them. This is motivated due to the fact that not all
          > children have the same experience and strength level and in order to get to
          > know if my children can manage the particular exercise, one should make the
          > experience for himself.
          >
          > Hope these are worth sharing.
          >
          > Kind regards
          > Markus Gärtner
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Laurent Bossavit
          ... Coding Dojos. ;) Laurent Bossavit laurent@bossavit.com
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 5, 2008
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            > Interesting example, and when I was a swimming tutor to get rapid
            > feedback is ask student to perform a "simulated" swimming at ground,
            > so that we ( the tutor ) can see the problem of the action clear. Not
            > sure which any programming practice is similar to this...
            >

            Coding Dojos. ;)

            Laurent Bossavit
            laurent@...
          • Markus Gaertner
            ... When doing so, you should not forget that the motion feeling of the individuum in the water is different to what you see from the perspective of the tutor
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 5, 2008
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              > Interesting example, and when I was a swimming tutor to get rapid
              > feedback is ask student to perform a "simulated" swimming at ground,
              > so that we ( the tutor ) can see the problem of the action clear. Not
              > sure which any programming practice is similar to this...

              When doing so, you should not forget that the motion feeling of the individuum
              in the water is different to what you see from the perspective of the tutor or
              trainer standing on the side. Consider the crawl swimming technique. When you
              swim you usually teach the kids to move the arm from right in front of the head
              towards the legs. What actually happens in the water, is, that the hand dives
              in in front of the water. The swimmer thinks he is moving his hand backwards
              while performing one stroke. What actually happens, is that the hand comes out
              of the water a few centimeters (or even more) compared to where it dived into
              the water. The translation between what actually happens in the water and what
              the kid has to know in order to perform the motion in an effective manner is
              the task of the teacher here.

              Regards
              Markus Gärtner
            • kentb
              Markus, I, too, need to have experienced a concept before I can teach it. Early in my career I encountered a theory that a good teacher could teach anything.
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 8, 2008
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                Markus,

                I, too, need to have experienced a concept before I can teach it. Early in
                my career I encountered a theory that a good teacher could teach anything.
                That's not my experience.

                I'm curious how this is connected to XP for you.

                Regards,

                Kent Beck
                Three Rivers Institute

                _____

                From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Markus Gaertner
                Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 5:59 AM
                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [XP] Two thoughts from Swimming trainer education



                > Interesting example, and when I was a swimming tutor to get rapid
                > feedback is ask student to perform a "simulated" swimming at ground,
                > so that we ( the tutor ) can see the problem of the action clear. Not
                > sure which any programming practice is similar to this...

                When doing so, you should not forget that the motion feeling of the
                individuum
                in the water is different to what you see from the perspective of the tutor
                or
                trainer standing on the side. Consider the crawl swimming technique. When
                you
                swim you usually teach the kids to move the arm from right in front of the
                head
                towards the legs. What actually happens in the water, is, that the hand
                dives
                in in front of the water. The swimmer thinks he is moving his hand backwards

                while performing one stroke. What actually happens, is that the hand comes
                out
                of the water a few centimeters (or even more) compared to where it dived
                into
                the water. The translation between what actually happens in the water and
                what
                the kid has to know in order to perform the motion in an effective manner is

                the task of the teacher here.

                Regards
                Markus Gärtner






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Markus Gaertner
                Hi Kent, ... Particularly I was surprised when reading the following in eXtreme Programming eXplained (2nd ed.) from you: I was talking recently with a
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 8, 2008
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                  Hi Kent,

                  > I, too, need to have experienced a concept before I can teach it. Early in
                  > my career I encountered a theory that a good teacher could teach anything.
                  > That's not my experience.
                  > I'm curious how this is connected to XP for you.

                  Particularly I was surprised when reading the following in eXtreme Programming
                  eXplained (2nd ed.) from you:

                  "I was talking recently with a technical lead who told me that he totally
                  supported programmers writing automated tests. 'Great,' I said, 'you've tried
                  JUnit then?'
                  'Oh, no, I've never written any tests. I just think it's a great idea.'
                  Expecting others to do what you are not willing to try yourself is
                  disrespectful and ineffective. Asking them to take risks you aren't willing to
                  take undermines your relationships and destroys the cohesiveness of the team."

                  Therefore I can fully acknowledge your point in the quotation above.

                  Kind regards
                  Markus Gärtner
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