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Re: [XP] How is Agile doing TODAY?

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  • John Galvin
    It s doing better than the waterfall movement. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
      It's doing better than the waterfall movement.

      stedetro wrote:
      >
      > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward? Are
      > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
      > agile?
      >
      > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Matt
      Doing better according to what metric? Adoption rate? Success rate? If one why not the other? Just curious although I doubt there will be anything more
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
        "Doing better" according to what metric? Adoption rate? Success rate?

        If one why not the other?

        Just curious although I doubt there will be anything more fruitful than
        a bunch of flame posts resulting from the question. It is an
        interesting question though.

        Matt

        P.S. I am not really interested in whether or not "it" is doing
        better... it is working for us which is the most important metric in my
        opinion.


        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, John Galvin <jgalvin@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > It's doing better than the waterfall movement.
        >
        > stedetro wrote:
        > >
        > > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward?
        Are
        > > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
        > > agile?
        > >
        > > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Chris Wheeler
        ... That s not a movement - waterfall is also a process for developing software. Some have had success with it, others haven t. Chris. [Non-text portions of
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
          On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 9:48 AM, John Galvin <jgalvin@...> wrote:

          > It's doing better than the waterfall movement.
          >
          >
          That's not a movement - waterfall is also a process for developing software.
          Some have had success with it, others haven't.

          Chris.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Phlip
          ... We have also seen the emergence of Big Agile Up Front, a promising new doctrine that seeks to mire programmers in ceremonies thwarting tests, pairing,
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
            Tim Ottinger wrote:

            >> Has anything evolved out of agile?
            >
            > Tools move forward, techniques move forward, new variations appear and sometimes disappear. Nothing major that I know of.
            > More and more CI, CT, Unit testing, planning, etc keep coming.

            We have also seen the emergence of Big Agile Up Front, a promising new doctrine
            that seeks to mire programmers in ceremonies thwarting tests, pairing,
            integration, and deployment. This is a big step up from the days of miring
            programmers in ceremonies thwarting emergent design...

            --
            Phlip
          • John Galvin
            Matt: My response to the initial email wasn t serious ... it was sent with a large helping of irony and meant to cause people to pause and realize the
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
              Matt:

              My response to the initial email wasn't serious ... it was sent with a
              large helping of irony and meant to cause people to pause and realize
              the ridiculousness of referring to anything as the Agile movement.

              John

              Matt wrote:
              >
              >
              > "Doing better" according to what metric? Adoption rate? Success rate?
              >
              > If one why not the other?
              >
              > Just curious although I doubt there will be anything more fruitful than
              > a bunch of flame posts resulting from the question. It is an
              > interesting question though.
              >
              > Matt
              >
              > P.S. I am not really interested in whether or not "it" is doing
              > better... it is working for us which is the most important metric in my
              > opinion.
              >
              > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, John Galvin <jgalvin@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > It's doing better than the waterfall movement.
              > >
              > > stedetro wrote:
              > > >
              > > > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward?
              > Are
              > > > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
              > > > agile?
              > > >
              > > > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tim Ottinger
              ... The worst I ve seen is big expensive tools up front in which companies prepare for agile buy buying a lot of fancy, high-mechanism, high-ceremony tools
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
                > From: Phlip <phlip2005@...>
                >
                > We have also seen the emergence of Big Agile Up Front, a promising new doctrine
                > that seeks to mire programmers in ceremonies thwarting tests, pairing,
                > integration, and deployment. This is a big step up from the days of miring
                > programmers in ceremonies thwarting emergent design...


                The worst I've seen is "big expensive tools up front" in which companies prepare
                for agile buy buying a lot of fancy, high-mechanism, high-ceremony tools especially
                to help them not pair and not gather together in a shared space.

                I've seen enough of that. Where is TSTTMPW when you really need it?




                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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              • Lance Walton
                ... I believe waterfall is a model, not a process. As a model, it kind of sucks for at least four reasons. 1. It is an oversimplification (or at least the
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Wheeler"
                  <christopher.wheeler@...> wrote:
                  > That's not a movement - waterfall is also a process for developing software.
                  > Some have had success with it, others haven't.

                  I believe waterfall is a model, not a process. As a model, it kind of sucks for at least four
                  reasons.

                  1. It is an oversimplification (or at least the common presentation of it is). But then people
                  oversimplify Agile Methods too.
                  2. It is seductive. It's nice and simple and people can see how they already use that
                  sequence to solve all sorts of problems (or at least they believe that that's what happens
                  in their heads). People often say that it seems 'logical' but they don't investigate the
                  assumptions.
                  3. It flows the wrong way. It looks nice, doesn't it? At the end of each phase you can't help
                  but fall down to the next phase, under the influence of an infinite but gentle supply of
                  gravity. But software development is work, and work means going uphill. Have you tried
                  pushing water uphill? It doesn't like it. It's slippery stuff too.
                  4. See points 1 -3.

                  Regards,

                  Lance
                • Ilja Preuss
                  ... I actually find movement to be a more accurate description than process . Cheers, Ilja
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
                    Chris Wheeler wrote:
                    > On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 10:54 AM, stedetro <stedetro@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> How is the agile movement doing these days?
                    >
                    >
                    > Slight correction: Agile is not a movement. It's a process for developing
                    > software. From that point of view, Some have made it work, others haven't.

                    I actually find "movement" to be a more accurate description than "process".

                    Cheers, Ilja
                  • Cory Foy
                    ... From: Ilja Preuss ... I have to agree with this. There is no formal Agile process. I think the ideas from the Agile Manifesto are
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: "Ilja Preuss" <it@...>
                      > I actually find "movement" to be a more
                      > accurate description than "process".

                      I have to agree with this. There is no formal Agile process. I think the ideas from the Agile Manifesto are really seeing traction in the general community, but that also means people are doing things that don't fit the manifesto but calling it "agile".

                      Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?" - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                      Cory (from mobile)
                    • Ron Jeffries
                      ... Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :) Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
                        Hello, Cory. On Sunday, April 6, 2008, at 10:04:07 AM, you wrote:

                        > Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                        > - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                        > presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                        Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                      • Chet Hendrickson
                        awesome ... -- Best regards, Chet mailto:lists@hendricksonxp.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
                          awesome


                          Sunday, April 6, 2008, 10:36:20 AM, you wrote:

                          > Hello, Cory. On Sunday, April 6, 2008, at 10:04:07 AM, you wrote:

                          >> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                          >> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                          >> presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                          > Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                          > Ron Jeffries
                          > www.XProgramming.com
                          > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear




                          --
                          Best regards,
                          Chet mailto:lists@...

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Scott Ambler
                          ... The DDJ 2008 Agile Adoption Survey, ran in Feb, found a 69% adoption rate amongst respondents. This is the same rate that we found last year. My write up
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
                            --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "stedetro" <stedetro@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward? Are
                            > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
                            > agile?
                            >
                            > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
                            >
                            The DDJ 2008 Agile Adoption Survey, ran in Feb, found a 69% adoption
                            rate amongst respondents. This is the same rate that we found last
                            year. My write up of the survey appears in the June issue of DDJ which
                            will be online the first week of May. At that time I will also be
                            posting the original questions, source data, and summary slide deck at
                            www.ambysoft.com/surveys/ as I usually do. The 2006 and 2007 surveys
                            are posted there already.

                            - Scott
                          • Wilson, Michael
                            As I am this very moment in the midst of eating a bagel that doesn t suck, I m not sure I see the incongruity. ;) ... From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
                              As I am this very moment in the midst of eating a bagel that doesn't
                              suck, I'm not sure I see the incongruity. ;)

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chet
                              Hendrickson
                              Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 7:06 PM
                              To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re[2]: [XP] How is Agile doing TODAY?

                              awesome


                              Sunday, April 6, 2008, 10:36:20 AM, you wrote:

                              > Hello, Cory. On Sunday, April 6, 2008, at 10:04:07 AM, you wrote:

                              >> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                              >> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the presence
                              >> of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                              > Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                              > Ron Jeffries
                              > www.XProgramming.com
                              > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear




                              --
                              Best regards,
                              Chet mailto:lists@...

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                            • Phlip
                              ... Did he parallel-evolve an old Doonesbury punchline, or just cite it? Someone dreams he met someone who died of Aids, and asks him what meeting God was
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
                                Chet Hendrickson wrote:

                                > awesome

                                >>> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                                >>> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                                >>> presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.
                                >
                                >> Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                                Did he parallel-evolve an old Doonesbury punchline, or just cite it?

                                Someone dreams he met someone who died of Aids, and asks him what meeting God
                                was like. "Like 'awesome', before it applied to pizza."

                                --
                                Gary Trudeau
                              • Chet Hendrickson
                                Hello Phlip, I stopped reading Doonesbury right after Nixon left office, so I am claiming independent discovery. chet ... -- Best regards, Chet
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
                                  Hello Phlip,

                                  I stopped reading Doonesbury right after Nixon left office, so I am claiming independent discovery.

                                  chet

                                  Monday, April 7, 2008, 10:11:36 AM, you wrote:

                                  > Chet Hendrickson wrote:

                                  >> awesome

                                  >>>> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                                  >>>> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                                  >>>> presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                                  >>> Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                                  > Did he parallel-evolve an old Doonesbury punchline, or just cite it?

                                  > Someone dreams he met someone who died of Aids, and asks him what meeting God
                                  > was like. "Like 'awesome', before it applied to pizza."




                                  --
                                  Best regards,
                                  Chet mailto:lists@...

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Michael James
                                  ... discovery. ... Chet, I ve been crediting you with We know less about the project today than at any time in the future. Please don t tell me that came
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
                                    --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Chet Hendrickson <lists@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Phlip,
                                    >
                                    > I stopped reading Doonesbury right after Nixon left office, so I am claiming independent
                                    discovery.
                                    >
                                    > chet
                                    >

                                    Chet, I've been crediting you with "We know less about the
                                    project today than at any time in the future." Please don't
                                    tell me that came from a Peanuts cartoon or something!

                                    --mj
                                  • Phlip
                                    ... The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
                                      Michael James wrote:

                                      > Chet, I've been crediting you with "We know less about the
                                      > project today than at any time in the future." Please don't
                                      > tell me that came from a Peanuts cartoon or something!

                                      The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office
                                      (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.

                                      And... Peanuts doing a project? The mind reels. All I can think of is Snoopy
                                      with his doghouse full of birds, having a meeting. Then they all go marching out
                                      with determined looks on their faces. Snoopy thinks: "There they go. Off to
                                      carry out their terrible plan. Someone should warn everyone!"

                                      Then he starts to fall back asleep. "Oh, well. They'll figure out sooner or later!"

                                      --
                                      Phlip
                                    • Phlip
                                      ... The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
                                        Michael James wrote:

                                        > Chet, I've been crediting you with "We know less about the
                                        > project today than at any time in the future." Please don't
                                        > tell me that came from a Peanuts cartoon or something!

                                        The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office
                                        (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.

                                        And... Peanuts doing a project? The mind reels. All I can think of is Snoopy
                                        with his doghouse full of birds, having a meeting. Then they all go marching out
                                        with determined looks on their faces. Snoopy thinks: "There they go. Off to
                                        carry out their terrible plan. Someone should warn everyone!"

                                        Then he starts to fall back asleep. "Oh, well. They'll figure out sooner or later!"

                                        --
                                        Phlip
                                      • arioch022000
                                        ... forward? Are ... out of ... adoption ... last ... which ... deck at ... surveys ... Still seems to be a lot of bias against agile from a lot of the project
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
                                          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Ambler"
                                          <scottwambler@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "stedetro" <stedetro@>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved
                                          forward? Are
                                          > > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved
                                          out of
                                          > > agile?
                                          > >
                                          > > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
                                          > >
                                          > The DDJ 2008 Agile Adoption Survey, ran in Feb, found a 69%
                                          adoption
                                          > rate amongst respondents. This is the same rate that we found
                                          last
                                          > year. My write up of the survey appears in the June issue of DDJ
                                          which
                                          > will be online the first week of May. At that time I will also be
                                          > posting the original questions, source data, and summary slide
                                          deck at
                                          > www.ambysoft.com/surveys/ as I usually do. The 2006 and 2007
                                          surveys
                                          > are posted there already.
                                          >
                                          > - Scott
                                          >

                                          Still seems to be a lot of bias against agile from a lot of the
                                          project manager and business owners out there. At least in my
                                          experiences. I find it a lot easier to talk about lean and
                                          iterative approaches because these have gained acceptance in
                                          manufacturing, I know agile and lean are not exactly the same
                                          things, but the words just seem to resonate better sometimes, lots
                                          of people seem threatened by agile. There's a lot of misperceptions
                                          about developers going crazy and running wild.
                                          That being said, a Canadian CIO quarterly just came out that had a
                                          story about how the Bank of Montréal just finished a $60 million
                                          project using agile approaches. So agile development
                                          is definitely becoming something to be reckoned with and is
                                          entering mainstream business language.

                                          Jeff Anderson
                                          http://agileconsulting.blogspot.com
                                        • Michael James
                                          ... Next Lucy will pull away the football, saying, Sorry Charlie Brown. Your goal donor was not your gold owner. --mj
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Apr 13, 2008
                                            --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:

                                            > And... Peanuts doing a project? The mind reels. All I can think of is Snoopy
                                            > with his doghouse full of birds, having a meeting. Then they all go marching out
                                            > with determined looks on their faces. Snoopy thinks: "There they go. Off to
                                            > carry out their terrible plan. Someone should warn everyone!"
                                            >
                                            > Then he starts to fall back asleep. "Oh, well. They'll figure out sooner or later!"
                                            >

                                            Next Lucy will pull away the football, saying, "Sorry Charlie Brown.
                                            Your goal donor was not your gold owner."

                                            --mj
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