Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XP] How is Agile doing TODAY?

Expand Messages
  • Chris Wheeler
    ... Slight correction: Agile is not a movement. It s a process for developing software. From that point of view, Some have made it work, others haven t. Chris.
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 10:54 AM, stedetro <stedetro@...> wrote:

      > How is the agile movement doing these days?


      Slight correction: Agile is not a movement. It's a process for developing
      software. From that point of view, Some have made it work, others haven't.


      Chris.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Galvin
      It s doing better than the waterfall movement. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        It's doing better than the waterfall movement.

        stedetro wrote:
        >
        > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward? Are
        > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
        > agile?
        >
        > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Matt
        Doing better according to what metric? Adoption rate? Success rate? If one why not the other? Just curious although I doubt there will be anything more
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          "Doing better" according to what metric? Adoption rate? Success rate?

          If one why not the other?

          Just curious although I doubt there will be anything more fruitful than
          a bunch of flame posts resulting from the question. It is an
          interesting question though.

          Matt

          P.S. I am not really interested in whether or not "it" is doing
          better... it is working for us which is the most important metric in my
          opinion.


          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, John Galvin <jgalvin@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > It's doing better than the waterfall movement.
          >
          > stedetro wrote:
          > >
          > > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward?
          Are
          > > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
          > > agile?
          > >
          > > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Chris Wheeler
          ... That s not a movement - waterfall is also a process for developing software. Some have had success with it, others haven t. Chris. [Non-text portions of
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 9:48 AM, John Galvin <jgalvin@...> wrote:

            > It's doing better than the waterfall movement.
            >
            >
            That's not a movement - waterfall is also a process for developing software.
            Some have had success with it, others haven't.

            Chris.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Phlip
            ... We have also seen the emergence of Big Agile Up Front, a promising new doctrine that seeks to mire programmers in ceremonies thwarting tests, pairing,
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Tim Ottinger wrote:

              >> Has anything evolved out of agile?
              >
              > Tools move forward, techniques move forward, new variations appear and sometimes disappear. Nothing major that I know of.
              > More and more CI, CT, Unit testing, planning, etc keep coming.

              We have also seen the emergence of Big Agile Up Front, a promising new doctrine
              that seeks to mire programmers in ceremonies thwarting tests, pairing,
              integration, and deployment. This is a big step up from the days of miring
              programmers in ceremonies thwarting emergent design...

              --
              Phlip
            • John Galvin
              Matt: My response to the initial email wasn t serious ... it was sent with a large helping of irony and meant to cause people to pause and realize the
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Matt:

                My response to the initial email wasn't serious ... it was sent with a
                large helping of irony and meant to cause people to pause and realize
                the ridiculousness of referring to anything as the Agile movement.

                John

                Matt wrote:
                >
                >
                > "Doing better" according to what metric? Adoption rate? Success rate?
                >
                > If one why not the other?
                >
                > Just curious although I doubt there will be anything more fruitful than
                > a bunch of flame posts resulting from the question. It is an
                > interesting question though.
                >
                > Matt
                >
                > P.S. I am not really interested in whether or not "it" is doing
                > better... it is working for us which is the most important metric in my
                > opinion.
                >
                > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, John Galvin <jgalvin@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > It's doing better than the waterfall movement.
                > >
                > > stedetro wrote:
                > > >
                > > > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward?
                > Are
                > > > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
                > > > agile?
                > > >
                > > > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tim Ottinger
                ... The worst I ve seen is big expensive tools up front in which companies prepare for agile buy buying a lot of fancy, high-mechanism, high-ceremony tools
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  > From: Phlip <phlip2005@...>
                  >
                  > We have also seen the emergence of Big Agile Up Front, a promising new doctrine
                  > that seeks to mire programmers in ceremonies thwarting tests, pairing,
                  > integration, and deployment. This is a big step up from the days of miring
                  > programmers in ceremonies thwarting emergent design...


                  The worst I've seen is "big expensive tools up front" in which companies prepare
                  for agile buy buying a lot of fancy, high-mechanism, high-ceremony tools especially
                  to help them not pair and not gather together in a shared space.

                  I've seen enough of that. Where is TSTTMPW when you really need it?




                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                  http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
                • Lance Walton
                  ... I believe waterfall is a model, not a process. As a model, it kind of sucks for at least four reasons. 1. It is an oversimplification (or at least the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Wheeler"
                    <christopher.wheeler@...> wrote:
                    > That's not a movement - waterfall is also a process for developing software.
                    > Some have had success with it, others haven't.

                    I believe waterfall is a model, not a process. As a model, it kind of sucks for at least four
                    reasons.

                    1. It is an oversimplification (or at least the common presentation of it is). But then people
                    oversimplify Agile Methods too.
                    2. It is seductive. It's nice and simple and people can see how they already use that
                    sequence to solve all sorts of problems (or at least they believe that that's what happens
                    in their heads). People often say that it seems 'logical' but they don't investigate the
                    assumptions.
                    3. It flows the wrong way. It looks nice, doesn't it? At the end of each phase you can't help
                    but fall down to the next phase, under the influence of an infinite but gentle supply of
                    gravity. But software development is work, and work means going uphill. Have you tried
                    pushing water uphill? It doesn't like it. It's slippery stuff too.
                    4. See points 1 -3.

                    Regards,

                    Lance
                  • Ilja Preuss
                    ... I actually find movement to be a more accurate description than process . Cheers, Ilja
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Chris Wheeler wrote:
                      > On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 10:54 AM, stedetro <stedetro@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> How is the agile movement doing these days?
                      >
                      >
                      > Slight correction: Agile is not a movement. It's a process for developing
                      > software. From that point of view, Some have made it work, others haven't.

                      I actually find "movement" to be a more accurate description than "process".

                      Cheers, Ilja
                    • Cory Foy
                      ... From: Ilja Preuss ... I have to agree with this. There is no formal Agile process. I think the ideas from the Agile Manifesto are
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: "Ilja Preuss" <it@...>
                        > I actually find "movement" to be a more
                        > accurate description than "process".

                        I have to agree with this. There is no formal Agile process. I think the ideas from the Agile Manifesto are really seeing traction in the general community, but that also means people are doing things that don't fit the manifesto but calling it "agile".

                        Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?" - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                        Cory (from mobile)
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        ... Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :) Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello, Cory. On Sunday, April 6, 2008, at 10:04:07 AM, you wrote:

                          > Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                          > - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                          > presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                          Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                        • Chet Hendrickson
                          awesome ... -- Best regards, Chet mailto:lists@hendricksonxp.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            awesome


                            Sunday, April 6, 2008, 10:36:20 AM, you wrote:

                            > Hello, Cory. On Sunday, April 6, 2008, at 10:04:07 AM, you wrote:

                            >> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                            >> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                            >> presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                            > Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                            > Ron Jeffries
                            > www.XProgramming.com
                            > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear




                            --
                            Best regards,
                            Chet mailto:lists@...

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Scott Ambler
                            ... The DDJ 2008 Agile Adoption Survey, ran in Feb, found a 69% adoption rate amongst respondents. This is the same rate that we found last year. My write up
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "stedetro" <stedetro@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward? Are
                              > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
                              > agile?
                              >
                              > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
                              >
                              The DDJ 2008 Agile Adoption Survey, ran in Feb, found a 69% adoption
                              rate amongst respondents. This is the same rate that we found last
                              year. My write up of the survey appears in the June issue of DDJ which
                              will be online the first week of May. At that time I will also be
                              posting the original questions, source data, and summary slide deck at
                              www.ambysoft.com/surveys/ as I usually do. The 2006 and 2007 surveys
                              are posted there already.

                              - Scott
                            • Wilson, Michael
                              As I am this very moment in the midst of eating a bagel that doesn t suck, I m not sure I see the incongruity. ;) ... From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                As I am this very moment in the midst of eating a bagel that doesn't
                                suck, I'm not sure I see the incongruity. ;)

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chet
                                Hendrickson
                                Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 7:06 PM
                                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re[2]: [XP] How is Agile doing TODAY?

                                awesome


                                Sunday, April 6, 2008, 10:36:20 AM, you wrote:

                                > Hello, Cory. On Sunday, April 6, 2008, at 10:04:07 AM, you wrote:

                                >> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                                >> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the presence
                                >> of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                                > Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                                > Ron Jeffries
                                > www.XProgramming.com
                                > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear




                                --
                                Best regards,
                                Chet mailto:lists@...

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                ------------------------------------

                                To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

                                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

                                ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links



                                This message is for the named person's use only. This communication is for
                                informational purposes only and has been obtained from sources believed to
                                be reliable, but it is not necessarily complete and its accuracy cannot be
                                guaranteed. It is not intended as an offer or solicitation for the purchase
                                or sale of any financial instrument or as an official confirmation of any
                                transaction. Moreover, this material should not be construed to contain any
                                recommendation regarding, or opinion concerning, any security. It may
                                contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No
                                confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If
                                you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all
                                copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the
                                sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute,
                                print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended
                                recipient. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual
                                sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is
                                authorized to state them to be the views of any such entity.

                                Securities products and services provided to Canadian investors are offered
                                by ITG Canada Corp. (member CIPF and IDA), an affiliate of Investment
                                Technology Group, Inc.

                                ITG Inc. and/or its affiliates reserves the right to monitor and archive
                                all electronic communications through its network.

                                ITG Inc. Member NASD, SIPC
                                -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
                              • Phlip
                                ... Did he parallel-evolve an old Doonesbury punchline, or just cite it? Someone dreams he met someone who died of Aids, and asks him what meeting God was
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Chet Hendrickson wrote:

                                  > awesome

                                  >>> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                                  >>> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                                  >>> presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.
                                  >
                                  >> Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                                  Did he parallel-evolve an old Doonesbury punchline, or just cite it?

                                  Someone dreams he met someone who died of Aids, and asks him what meeting God
                                  was like. "Like 'awesome', before it applied to pizza."

                                  --
                                  Gary Trudeau
                                • Chet Hendrickson
                                  Hello Phlip, I stopped reading Doonesbury right after Nixon left office, so I am claiming independent discovery. chet ... -- Best regards, Chet
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Phlip,

                                    I stopped reading Doonesbury right after Nixon left office, so I am claiming independent discovery.

                                    chet

                                    Monday, April 7, 2008, 10:11:36 AM, you wrote:

                                    > Chet Hendrickson wrote:

                                    >> awesome

                                    >>>> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                                    >>>> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                                    >>>> presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                                    >>> Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                                    > Did he parallel-evolve an old Doonesbury punchline, or just cite it?

                                    > Someone dreams he met someone who died of Aids, and asks him what meeting God
                                    > was like. "Like 'awesome', before it applied to pizza."




                                    --
                                    Best regards,
                                    Chet mailto:lists@...

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Michael James
                                    ... discovery. ... Chet, I ve been crediting you with We know less about the project today than at any time in the future. Please don t tell me that came
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Chet Hendrickson <lists@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello Phlip,
                                      >
                                      > I stopped reading Doonesbury right after Nixon left office, so I am claiming independent
                                      discovery.
                                      >
                                      > chet
                                      >

                                      Chet, I've been crediting you with "We know less about the
                                      project today than at any time in the future." Please don't
                                      tell me that came from a Peanuts cartoon or something!

                                      --mj
                                    • Phlip
                                      ... The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Michael James wrote:

                                        > Chet, I've been crediting you with "We know less about the
                                        > project today than at any time in the future." Please don't
                                        > tell me that came from a Peanuts cartoon or something!

                                        The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office
                                        (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.

                                        And... Peanuts doing a project? The mind reels. All I can think of is Snoopy
                                        with his doghouse full of birds, having a meeting. Then they all go marching out
                                        with determined looks on their faces. Snoopy thinks: "There they go. Off to
                                        carry out their terrible plan. Someone should warn everyone!"

                                        Then he starts to fall back asleep. "Oh, well. They'll figure out sooner or later!"

                                        --
                                        Phlip
                                      • Phlip
                                        ... The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Michael James wrote:

                                          > Chet, I've been crediting you with "We know less about the
                                          > project today than at any time in the future." Please don't
                                          > tell me that came from a Peanuts cartoon or something!

                                          The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office
                                          (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.

                                          And... Peanuts doing a project? The mind reels. All I can think of is Snoopy
                                          with his doghouse full of birds, having a meeting. Then they all go marching out
                                          with determined looks on their faces. Snoopy thinks: "There they go. Off to
                                          carry out their terrible plan. Someone should warn everyone!"

                                          Then he starts to fall back asleep. "Oh, well. They'll figure out sooner or later!"

                                          --
                                          Phlip
                                        • arioch022000
                                          ... forward? Are ... out of ... adoption ... last ... which ... deck at ... surveys ... Still seems to be a lot of bias against agile from a lot of the project
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Ambler"
                                            <scottwambler@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "stedetro" <stedetro@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved
                                            forward? Are
                                            > > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved
                                            out of
                                            > > agile?
                                            > >
                                            > > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
                                            > >
                                            > The DDJ 2008 Agile Adoption Survey, ran in Feb, found a 69%
                                            adoption
                                            > rate amongst respondents. This is the same rate that we found
                                            last
                                            > year. My write up of the survey appears in the June issue of DDJ
                                            which
                                            > will be online the first week of May. At that time I will also be
                                            > posting the original questions, source data, and summary slide
                                            deck at
                                            > www.ambysoft.com/surveys/ as I usually do. The 2006 and 2007
                                            surveys
                                            > are posted there already.
                                            >
                                            > - Scott
                                            >

                                            Still seems to be a lot of bias against agile from a lot of the
                                            project manager and business owners out there. At least in my
                                            experiences. I find it a lot easier to talk about lean and
                                            iterative approaches because these have gained acceptance in
                                            manufacturing, I know agile and lean are not exactly the same
                                            things, but the words just seem to resonate better sometimes, lots
                                            of people seem threatened by agile. There's a lot of misperceptions
                                            about developers going crazy and running wild.
                                            That being said, a Canadian CIO quarterly just came out that had a
                                            story about how the Bank of Montréal just finished a $60 million
                                            project using agile approaches. So agile development
                                            is definitely becoming something to be reckoned with and is
                                            entering mainstream business language.

                                            Jeff Anderson
                                            http://agileconsulting.blogspot.com
                                          • Michael James
                                            ... Next Lucy will pull away the football, saying, Sorry Charlie Brown. Your goal donor was not your gold owner. --mj
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Apr 13, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:

                                              > And... Peanuts doing a project? The mind reels. All I can think of is Snoopy
                                              > with his doghouse full of birds, having a meeting. Then they all go marching out
                                              > with determined looks on their faces. Snoopy thinks: "There they go. Off to
                                              > carry out their terrible plan. Someone should warn everyone!"
                                              >
                                              > Then he starts to fall back asleep. "Oh, well. They'll figure out sooner or later!"
                                              >

                                              Next Lucy will pull away the football, saying, "Sorry Charlie Brown.
                                              Your goal donor was not your gold owner."

                                              --mj
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.