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Re: [XP] How is Agile doing TODAY?

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  • Tim Ottinger
    ... ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That s why Blockbuster s offering you one month of
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 4, 2008
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      > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward? Are
      > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
      > agile?
      >
      > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
      >
      >
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    • Tim Ottinger
      ... Fine, thank you. ... I think so. It oscillates between first principles and new tools, but seems to be generally progressing. ... I hope so. ... Tools
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 4, 2008
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        > How is the agile movement doing these days?

        Fine, thank you.

        > Has it moved forward?

        I think so. It oscillates between first principles and new tools, but seems to be generally progressing.

        > Are there still a lot of doubters out there?

        I hope so.

        > Has anything evolved out of agile?

        Tools move forward, techniques move forward, new variations appear and sometimes disappear. Nothing major that I know of.
        More and more CI, CT, Unit testing, planning, etc keep coming.

        > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.

        A lot of stuff from that period is still good. :-)
        There's a lot of blogging about agile, xp, etc. It's not quiet out here. Stuff keeps happening, transitions keep coming along. and of course this crazy mailing list keeps overflowing all available space and patience. I would feel safe saying there is anything but static inertia in effect here.







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      • Chris Wheeler
        ... Slight correction: Agile is not a movement. It s a process for developing software. From that point of view, Some have made it work, others haven t. Chris.
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
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          On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 10:54 AM, stedetro <stedetro@...> wrote:

          > How is the agile movement doing these days?


          Slight correction: Agile is not a movement. It's a process for developing
          software. From that point of view, Some have made it work, others haven't.


          Chris.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Galvin
          It s doing better than the waterfall movement. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
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            It's doing better than the waterfall movement.

            stedetro wrote:
            >
            > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward? Are
            > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
            > agile?
            >
            > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Matt
            Doing better according to what metric? Adoption rate? Success rate? If one why not the other? Just curious although I doubt there will be anything more
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
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              "Doing better" according to what metric? Adoption rate? Success rate?

              If one why not the other?

              Just curious although I doubt there will be anything more fruitful than
              a bunch of flame posts resulting from the question. It is an
              interesting question though.

              Matt

              P.S. I am not really interested in whether or not "it" is doing
              better... it is working for us which is the most important metric in my
              opinion.


              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, John Galvin <jgalvin@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > It's doing better than the waterfall movement.
              >
              > stedetro wrote:
              > >
              > > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward?
              Are
              > > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
              > > agile?
              > >
              > > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Chris Wheeler
              ... That s not a movement - waterfall is also a process for developing software. Some have had success with it, others haven t. Chris. [Non-text portions of
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
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                On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 9:48 AM, John Galvin <jgalvin@...> wrote:

                > It's doing better than the waterfall movement.
                >
                >
                That's not a movement - waterfall is also a process for developing software.
                Some have had success with it, others haven't.

                Chris.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Phlip
                ... We have also seen the emergence of Big Agile Up Front, a promising new doctrine that seeks to mire programmers in ceremonies thwarting tests, pairing,
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
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                  Tim Ottinger wrote:

                  >> Has anything evolved out of agile?
                  >
                  > Tools move forward, techniques move forward, new variations appear and sometimes disappear. Nothing major that I know of.
                  > More and more CI, CT, Unit testing, planning, etc keep coming.

                  We have also seen the emergence of Big Agile Up Front, a promising new doctrine
                  that seeks to mire programmers in ceremonies thwarting tests, pairing,
                  integration, and deployment. This is a big step up from the days of miring
                  programmers in ceremonies thwarting emergent design...

                  --
                  Phlip
                • John Galvin
                  Matt: My response to the initial email wasn t serious ... it was sent with a large helping of irony and meant to cause people to pause and realize the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
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                    Matt:

                    My response to the initial email wasn't serious ... it was sent with a
                    large helping of irony and meant to cause people to pause and realize
                    the ridiculousness of referring to anything as the Agile movement.

                    John

                    Matt wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > "Doing better" according to what metric? Adoption rate? Success rate?
                    >
                    > If one why not the other?
                    >
                    > Just curious although I doubt there will be anything more fruitful than
                    > a bunch of flame posts resulting from the question. It is an
                    > interesting question though.
                    >
                    > Matt
                    >
                    > P.S. I am not really interested in whether or not "it" is doing
                    > better... it is working for us which is the most important metric in my
                    > opinion.
                    >
                    > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>, John Galvin <jgalvin@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > It's doing better than the waterfall movement.
                    > >
                    > > stedetro wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward?
                    > Are
                    > > > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
                    > > > agile?
                    > > >
                    > > > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tim Ottinger
                    ... The worst I ve seen is big expensive tools up front in which companies prepare for agile buy buying a lot of fancy, high-mechanism, high-ceremony tools
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 5, 2008
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                      > From: Phlip <phlip2005@...>
                      >
                      > We have also seen the emergence of Big Agile Up Front, a promising new doctrine
                      > that seeks to mire programmers in ceremonies thwarting tests, pairing,
                      > integration, and deployment. This is a big step up from the days of miring
                      > programmers in ceremonies thwarting emergent design...


                      The worst I've seen is "big expensive tools up front" in which companies prepare
                      for agile buy buying a lot of fancy, high-mechanism, high-ceremony tools especially
                      to help them not pair and not gather together in a shared space.

                      I've seen enough of that. Where is TSTTMPW when you really need it?




                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
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                    • Lance Walton
                      ... I believe waterfall is a model, not a process. As a model, it kind of sucks for at least four reasons. 1. It is an oversimplification (or at least the
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
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                        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Wheeler"
                        <christopher.wheeler@...> wrote:
                        > That's not a movement - waterfall is also a process for developing software.
                        > Some have had success with it, others haven't.

                        I believe waterfall is a model, not a process. As a model, it kind of sucks for at least four
                        reasons.

                        1. It is an oversimplification (or at least the common presentation of it is). But then people
                        oversimplify Agile Methods too.
                        2. It is seductive. It's nice and simple and people can see how they already use that
                        sequence to solve all sorts of problems (or at least they believe that that's what happens
                        in their heads). People often say that it seems 'logical' but they don't investigate the
                        assumptions.
                        3. It flows the wrong way. It looks nice, doesn't it? At the end of each phase you can't help
                        but fall down to the next phase, under the influence of an infinite but gentle supply of
                        gravity. But software development is work, and work means going uphill. Have you tried
                        pushing water uphill? It doesn't like it. It's slippery stuff too.
                        4. See points 1 -3.

                        Regards,

                        Lance
                      • Ilja Preuss
                        ... I actually find movement to be a more accurate description than process . Cheers, Ilja
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
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                          Chris Wheeler wrote:
                          > On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 10:54 AM, stedetro <stedetro@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >> How is the agile movement doing these days?
                          >
                          >
                          > Slight correction: Agile is not a movement. It's a process for developing
                          > software. From that point of view, Some have made it work, others haven't.

                          I actually find "movement" to be a more accurate description than "process".

                          Cheers, Ilja
                        • Cory Foy
                          ... From: Ilja Preuss ... I have to agree with this. There is no formal Agile process. I think the ideas from the Agile Manifesto are
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
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                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: "Ilja Preuss" <it@...>
                            > I actually find "movement" to be a more
                            > accurate description than "process".

                            I have to agree with this. There is no formal Agile process. I think the ideas from the Agile Manifesto are really seeing traction in the general community, but that also means people are doing things that don't fit the manifesto but calling it "agile".

                            Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?" - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                            Cory (from mobile)
                          • Ron Jeffries
                            ... Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :) Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
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                              Hello, Cory. On Sunday, April 6, 2008, at 10:04:07 AM, you wrote:

                              > Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                              > - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                              > presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                              Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
                            • Chet Hendrickson
                              awesome ... -- Best regards, Chet mailto:lists@hendricksonxp.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 6, 2008
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                                awesome


                                Sunday, April 6, 2008, 10:36:20 AM, you wrote:

                                > Hello, Cory. On Sunday, April 6, 2008, at 10:04:07 AM, you wrote:

                                >> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                                >> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                                >> presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                                > Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                                > Ron Jeffries
                                > www.XProgramming.com
                                > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear




                                --
                                Best regards,
                                Chet mailto:lists@...

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Scott Ambler
                                ... The DDJ 2008 Agile Adoption Survey, ran in Feb, found a 69% adoption rate amongst respondents. This is the same rate that we found last year. My write up
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
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                                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "stedetro" <stedetro@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved forward? Are
                                  > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved out of
                                  > agile?
                                  >
                                  > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
                                  >
                                  The DDJ 2008 Agile Adoption Survey, ran in Feb, found a 69% adoption
                                  rate amongst respondents. This is the same rate that we found last
                                  year. My write up of the survey appears in the June issue of DDJ which
                                  will be online the first week of May. At that time I will also be
                                  posting the original questions, source data, and summary slide deck at
                                  www.ambysoft.com/surveys/ as I usually do. The 2006 and 2007 surveys
                                  are posted there already.

                                  - Scott
                                • Wilson, Michael
                                  As I am this very moment in the midst of eating a bagel that doesn t suck, I m not sure I see the incongruity. ;) ... From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
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                                    As I am this very moment in the midst of eating a bagel that doesn't
                                    suck, I'm not sure I see the incongruity. ;)

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chet
                                    Hendrickson
                                    Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 7:06 PM
                                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re[2]: [XP] How is Agile doing TODAY?

                                    awesome


                                    Sunday, April 6, 2008, 10:36:20 AM, you wrote:

                                    > Hello, Cory. On Sunday, April 6, 2008, at 10:04:07 AM, you wrote:

                                    >> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                                    >> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the presence
                                    >> of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                                    > Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                                    > Ron Jeffries
                                    > www.XProgramming.com
                                    > Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear




                                    --
                                    Best regards,
                                    Chet mailto:lists@...

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                                  • Phlip
                                    ... Did he parallel-evolve an old Doonesbury punchline, or just cite it? Someone dreams he met someone who died of Aids, and asks him what meeting God was
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
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                                      Chet Hendrickson wrote:

                                      > awesome

                                      >>> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                                      >>> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                                      >>> presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.
                                      >
                                      >> Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                                      Did he parallel-evolve an old Doonesbury punchline, or just cite it?

                                      Someone dreams he met someone who died of Aids, and asks him what meeting God
                                      was like. "Like 'awesome', before it applied to pizza."

                                      --
                                      Gary Trudeau
                                    • Chet Hendrickson
                                      Hello Phlip, I stopped reading Doonesbury right after Nixon left office, so I am claiming independent discovery. chet ... -- Best regards, Chet
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 7, 2008
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                                        Hello Phlip,

                                        I stopped reading Doonesbury right after Nixon left office, so I am claiming independent discovery.

                                        chet

                                        Monday, April 7, 2008, 10:11:36 AM, you wrote:

                                        > Chet Hendrickson wrote:

                                        >> awesome

                                        >>>> Or, as Ron s wonderfully put it when I asked him "What is Agle?"
                                        >>>> - Awesome used to refer to the feeling when you were in the
                                        >>>> presence of God. Now it refers to a bagel that doesn't suck.

                                        >>> Note, please, that this line was stolen from Chet. :)

                                        > Did he parallel-evolve an old Doonesbury punchline, or just cite it?

                                        > Someone dreams he met someone who died of Aids, and asks him what meeting God
                                        > was like. "Like 'awesome', before it applied to pizza."




                                        --
                                        Best regards,
                                        Chet mailto:lists@...

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Michael James
                                        ... discovery. ... Chet, I ve been crediting you with We know less about the project today than at any time in the future. Please don t tell me that came
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Chet Hendrickson <lists@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello Phlip,
                                          >
                                          > I stopped reading Doonesbury right after Nixon left office, so I am claiming independent
                                          discovery.
                                          >
                                          > chet
                                          >

                                          Chet, I've been crediting you with "We know less about the
                                          project today than at any time in the future." Please don't
                                          tell me that came from a Peanuts cartoon or something!

                                          --mj
                                        • Phlip
                                          ... The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                            Michael James wrote:

                                            > Chet, I've been crediting you with "We know less about the
                                            > project today than at any time in the future." Please don't
                                            > tell me that came from a Peanuts cartoon or something!

                                            The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office
                                            (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.

                                            And... Peanuts doing a project? The mind reels. All I can think of is Snoopy
                                            with his doghouse full of birds, having a meeting. Then they all go marching out
                                            with determined looks on their faces. Snoopy thinks: "There they go. Off to
                                            carry out their terrible plan. Someone should warn everyone!"

                                            Then he starts to fall back asleep. "Oh, well. They'll figure out sooner or later!"

                                            --
                                            Phlip
                                          • Phlip
                                            ... The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                              Michael James wrote:

                                              > Chet, I've been crediting you with "We know less about the
                                              > project today than at any time in the future." Please don't
                                              > tell me that came from a Peanuts cartoon or something!

                                              The D quote I remember was from the late 1990s, long after Nixon left office
                                              (and before all his ghosts & spooks got back in!). Chet parallel-evolved it.

                                              And... Peanuts doing a project? The mind reels. All I can think of is Snoopy
                                              with his doghouse full of birds, having a meeting. Then they all go marching out
                                              with determined looks on their faces. Snoopy thinks: "There they go. Off to
                                              carry out their terrible plan. Someone should warn everyone!"

                                              Then he starts to fall back asleep. "Oh, well. They'll figure out sooner or later!"

                                              --
                                              Phlip
                                            • arioch022000
                                              ... forward? Are ... out of ... adoption ... last ... which ... deck at ... surveys ... Still seems to be a lot of bias against agile from a lot of the project
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Ambler"
                                                <scottwambler@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "stedetro" <stedetro@>
                                                > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > How is the agile movement doing these days? Has it moved
                                                forward? Are
                                                > > there still a lot of doubters out there? Has anything evolved
                                                out of
                                                > > agile?
                                                > >
                                                > > Most stuff I google (for/against) seem to be from 2005-2006.
                                                > >
                                                > The DDJ 2008 Agile Adoption Survey, ran in Feb, found a 69%
                                                adoption
                                                > rate amongst respondents. This is the same rate that we found
                                                last
                                                > year. My write up of the survey appears in the June issue of DDJ
                                                which
                                                > will be online the first week of May. At that time I will also be
                                                > posting the original questions, source data, and summary slide
                                                deck at
                                                > www.ambysoft.com/surveys/ as I usually do. The 2006 and 2007
                                                surveys
                                                > are posted there already.
                                                >
                                                > - Scott
                                                >

                                                Still seems to be a lot of bias against agile from a lot of the
                                                project manager and business owners out there. At least in my
                                                experiences. I find it a lot easier to talk about lean and
                                                iterative approaches because these have gained acceptance in
                                                manufacturing, I know agile and lean are not exactly the same
                                                things, but the words just seem to resonate better sometimes, lots
                                                of people seem threatened by agile. There's a lot of misperceptions
                                                about developers going crazy and running wild.
                                                That being said, a Canadian CIO quarterly just came out that had a
                                                story about how the Bank of Montréal just finished a $60 million
                                                project using agile approaches. So agile development
                                                is definitely becoming something to be reckoned with and is
                                                entering mainstream business language.

                                                Jeff Anderson
                                                http://agileconsulting.blogspot.com
                                              • Michael James
                                                ... Next Lucy will pull away the football, saying, Sorry Charlie Brown. Your goal donor was not your gold owner. --mj
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Apr 13, 2008
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                                                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:

                                                  > And... Peanuts doing a project? The mind reels. All I can think of is Snoopy
                                                  > with his doghouse full of birds, having a meeting. Then they all go marching out
                                                  > with determined looks on their faces. Snoopy thinks: "There they go. Off to
                                                  > carry out their terrible plan. Someone should warn everyone!"
                                                  >
                                                  > Then he starts to fall back asleep. "Oh, well. They'll figure out sooner or later!"
                                                  >

                                                  Next Lucy will pull away the football, saying, "Sorry Charlie Brown.
                                                  Your goal donor was not your gold owner."

                                                  --mj
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