Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [XP] What agile methods are you running into at client sites?

Expand Messages
  • Mike Vizdos
    Hi all. As a Certified Scrum Trainer (one of forty something people who do this as a practitioner too!) I know this statement is true. Or that is my
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 3, 2008
      Hi all.

      As a "Certified Scrum Trainer" (one of forty something people who do
      this as a practitioner too!) I know this statement is true. Or that
      is my perception. And perception sometimes means reality. Right?

      A lot of people are pretending Agile = Scrum = XP.

      Sad. But true. Again... my perception.

      So now what?

      I am trying my part (smile) with the cartoons and blog at www.implementingscrum.com
      to try and get a message out.

      - mike vizdos
      www.implementingscrum.com
      www.michaelvizdos.com



      On Feb 3, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Ken Mccormack wrote:

      > >>I recently saw Mike Cohn refer to Scrum as the most popular agile
      > method in a presentation.<<
      >
      > Over the past year, speaking to lots of business development guys, my
      > experience is that Scrum is definitely the most popular methodology to
      > pretend to have :P
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jonathan Rasmusson
      I hadn t seen that before. Many thx. ... http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 3, 2008
        I hadn't seen that before. Many thx.

        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Steve Howell
        <showell30@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > --- Jonathan Rasmusson <rasmus4200@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > I am a die hard XP'er - but I am running into more
        > > and more teams
        > > using the Scrum terms (mostly at the business level
        > > where the XP
        > > practices don't apply as much).
        > >
        >
        > You might appreciate this, if you haven't already
        > encountered it:
        >
        > http://jamesshore.com/Blog/Scrum-XP-Practices-Cross-Reference.html
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        > Be a better friend, newshound, and
        > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
        http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
        >
      • Steve Howell
        ... You re welcome! My editorializing about Scrum is that it s easier to adapt than XP because it s less ambitious in its scope, but it s less powerful for
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 3, 2008
          --- Jonathan Rasmusson <rasmus4200@...> wrote:

          > I hadn't seen that before. Many thx.
          >

          You're welcome! My editorializing about Scrum is that
          it's easier to adapt than XP because it's less
          ambitious in its scope, but it's less powerful for the
          same reason.

          Having said that, I welcome the adoption of Scrum in
          the workplace, because I think it's founded on valid
          principles.






          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Be a better friend, newshound, and
          know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
        • Phlip
          ... It s also easier to adopt when it doesn t pull managers too far from their comfort zones - hence not close enough to mine! -- Phlip
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 3, 2008
            Steve Howell wrote:

            > You're welcome! My editorializing about Scrum is that
            > it's easier to adapt than XP because it's less
            > ambitious in its scope, but it's less powerful for the
            > same reason.
            >
            > Having said that, I welcome the adoption of Scrum in
            > the workplace, because I think it's founded on valid
            > principles.

            It's also easier to adopt when it doesn't pull managers too far from their
            comfort zones - hence not close enough to mine!

            --
            Phlip
          • Phlip
            ... Thanks - I have been seeking a tactful way to say that for a while...
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 3, 2008
              Ken Mccormack wrote:

              > Over the past year, speaking to lots of business development guys, my
              > experience is that Scrum is definitely the most popular methodology to
              > pretend to have :P

              Thanks - I have been seeking a tactful way to say that for a while...
            • Simon Jones
              ... do ... that ... lol.. a lot are pretending that Agile = Scrum = Carry on pretty much as we were before but have something else to blame for failure other
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 4, 2008
                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Mike Vizdos <mvizdos@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hi all.
                >
                > As a "Certified Scrum Trainer" (one of forty something people who
                do
                > this as a practitioner too!) I know this statement is true. Or
                that
                > is my perception. And perception sometimes means reality. Right?
                >
                > A lot of people are pretending Agile = Scrum = XP.

                lol.. a lot are pretending that

                Agile = Scrum = Carry on pretty much as we were before but have
                something else to blame for failure other than poor
                requirements/specs/designs and save us all that headache of
                documentation.

                Sry.. bit cynical... but it is Monday morning

                Simon

                >
                > Sad. But true. Again... my perception.
                >
                > So now what?
                >
                > I am trying my part (smile) with the cartoons and blog at
                www.implementingscrum.com
                > to try and get a message out.
                >
                > - mike vizdos
                > www.implementingscrum.com
                > www.michaelvizdos.com
                >
                >
                >
                > On Feb 3, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Ken Mccormack wrote:
                >
                > > >>I recently saw Mike Cohn refer to Scrum as the most popular
                agile
                > > method in a presentation.<<
                > >
                > > Over the past year, speaking to lots of business development
                guys, my
                > > experience is that Scrum is definitely the most popular
                methodology to
                > > pretend to have :P
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Ron Jeffries
                Hello, Phlip. On Monday, February 4, 2008, at 1:16:51 AM, you ... This would be sort of a Ron Jeffries definition of tact , I guess ... Ron Jeffries
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 4, 2008
                  Hello, Phlip. On Monday, February 4, 2008, at 1:16:51 AM, you
                  wrote:

                  > Ken Mccormack wrote:

                  >> Over the past year, speaking to lots of business development guys, my
                  >> experience is that Scrum is definitely the most popular methodology to
                  >> pretend to have :P

                  > Thanks - I have been seeking a tactful way to say that for a while...

                  This would be sort of a Ron Jeffries definition of "tact", I guess
                  ...

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  Make it real or else forget about it -- Carlos Santana
                • George Paci
                  ... So you, for one, welcome our new Scrum overlords? --George
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 4, 2008
                    Steve Howell wrote:
                    > My editorializing about Scrum is that
                    > it's easier to adapt than XP because it's less
                    > ambitious in its scope, but it's less powerful for the
                    > same reason.
                    >
                    > Having said that, I welcome the adoption of Scrum in
                    > the workplace, because I think it's founded on valid
                    > principles.

                    So you, for one, welcome our new Scrum overlords?

                    --George
                  • Steve Howell
                    ... Yes, and I will be giving them roses and pelting them with rice. ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 4, 2008
                      --- George Paci <gpaci@...> wrote:

                      > So you, for one, welcome our new Scrum overlords?
                      >

                      Yes, and I will be giving them roses and pelting them
                      with rice. ;)






                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                      Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                    • Simon Jones
                      ... A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, my nan was fond of saying. Scrum seems to fall foul of this. And, in my experience, it also creates a
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 5, 2008
                        --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Steve Howell
                        <showell30@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > --- George Paci <gpaci@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > So you, for one, welcome our new Scrum overlords?
                        > >
                        >
                        > Yes, and I will be giving them roses and pelting them
                        > with rice. ;)
                        >

                        A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, my nan was fond of
                        saying.

                        Scrum seems to fall foul of this. And, in my experience, it also
                        creates a barrier to XP adoption.

                        'We do Scrum not XP'

                        The idea I've heard floated is that a team will struggle initially
                        with Scrum and the realise they need to bring in XP like practices.

                        I observe the opposite. Scrum is sdopted, it doesn't go all that
                        well, the team backs off and reverts.




                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ______________________________________________________________________
                        ______________
                        > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                        > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                        http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                        >
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        Hello, Jonathan. On Sunday, February 3, 2008, at 1:33:39 PM, you ... I suspect that Cohn is right. The Scrum people have done a fantastic job of marketing
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 5, 2008
                          Hello, Jonathan. On Sunday, February 3, 2008, at 1:33:39 PM, you
                          wrote:

                          > What agile methods are you all using these days.

                          > I recently saw Mike Cohn refer to Scrum as the most popular agile
                          > method in a presentation.

                          > I am a die hard XP'er - but I am running into more and more teams
                          > using the Scrum terms (mostly at the business level where the XP
                          > practices don't apply as much).

                          > At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Just wondering if I am
                          > the only one feeling this (and having to reconcile often between Scrum
                          > and XP terms).

                          I suspect that Cohn is right. The Scrum people have done a fantastic
                          job of marketing their product. What has not happened reliably, is
                          the transformation that Scrum promises, namely that the team will
                          figure out what to do, by focusing on and removing obstacles. It
                          appears that they don't get that part.

                          So I've spent a lot of time helping Scrum teams move toward actually
                          being able to reach DONE DONE. That's OK too ...

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                          Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                          Yin and Yang I figure.
                          -- Tom Jeffries
                        • Jean Richardson
                          I ve heard it said that Scrum is a project management methodology, XP is a development methodology, and the two fit well together. Does that may sense to you?
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 5, 2008
                            I've heard it said that Scrum is a project management methodology, XP is a development methodology, and the two fit well together. Does that may sense to you?

                            -- Jean

                            Ron Jeffries wrote:

                            > Hello, Jonathan. On Sunday, February 3, 2008, at 1:33:39 PM, you
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > > What agile methods are you all using these days.
                            >
                            > > I recently saw Mike Cohn refer to Scrum as the most popular agile
                            > > method in a presentation.
                            >
                            > > I am a die hard XP'er - but I am running into more and more teams
                            > > using the Scrum terms (mostly at the business level where the XP
                            > > practices don't apply as much).
                            >
                            > > At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Just wondering if I am
                            > > the only one feeling this (and having to reconcile often between Scrum
                            > > and XP terms).
                            >
                            > I suspect that Cohn is right. The Scrum people have done a fantastic
                            > job of marketing their product. What has not happened reliably, is
                            > the transformation that Scrum promises, namely that the team will
                            > figure out what to do, by focusing on and removing obstacles. It
                            > appears that they don't get that part.
                            >
                            > So I've spent a lot of time helping Scrum teams move toward actually
                            > being able to reach DONE DONE. That's OK too ...
                            >
                            > Ron Jeffries
                            > www.XProgramming.com
                            > I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                            > Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                            > Yin and Yang I figure.
                            > -- Tom Jeffries
                          • David H.
                            ... Not to me. I can use Scrum to raise cattle or build a ship. -- Sent from gmail so do not trust this communication. Do not send me sensitive information
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 5, 2008
                              On Feb 5, 2008 7:36 PM, Jean Richardson <jean@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I've heard it said that Scrum is a project management methodology, XP is a
                              > development methodology, and the two fit well together. Does that may sense
                              > to you?
                              >
                              Not to me.
                              I can use Scrum to raise cattle or build a ship.


                              --
                              Sent from gmail so do not trust this communication.
                              Do not send me sensitive information here, ask for my none-gmail accounts.

                              "Therefore the considerations of the intelligent always include both
                              benefit and harm." - Sun Tzu
                            • John Roth
                              ... From: Jean Richardson To: Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [XP] What
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 5, 2008
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Jean Richardson" <jean@...>
                                To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:36 PM
                                Subject: Re: [XP] What agile methods are you running into at client sites?


                                > I've heard it said that Scrum is a project management methodology, XP is a
                                > development methodology, and the two fit well together. Does that may
                                > sense to you?
                                >
                                > -- Jean

                                It's a "big lie". It's true that Scrum is a project management methodology.
                                However, XP contains its own project management methodology, which
                                is reasonably similar. There are minor differences: Scrum has a hierarchical
                                technique for integrating larger teams (the Scrum of Scrums) and XP has
                                a two level structure: iteration and release. Otherwise they're about as
                                similar as Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

                                John Roth
                              • Jonathan Rasmusson
                                Many people have that view of the relationship between Scrum and XP. I might argue that XP is a management methodology too, but not everyone sees it that way.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Feb 5, 2008
                                  Many people have that view of the relationship between Scrum and XP.

                                  I might argue that XP is a management methodology too, but not
                                  everyone sees it that way.

                                  I agree with some comments Jim Shore made on another thread, that
                                  Scrum seems to be getting a lions share of the adoption. Mostly
                                  because it is not as threatening as early XP (first edition). Which is
                                  a pity because that is the version I liked best.

                                  Never-the-less, most comments on this thread so far seem to confirm
                                  that Scrum is gaining in popularity and being adopted at many client
                                  sites by name.

                                  Cheers - Jonathan

                                  --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Richardson"
                                  <jean@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I've heard it said that Scrum is a project management methodology,
                                  XP is a development methodology, and the two fit well together. Does
                                  that may sense to you?
                                  >
                                  > -- Jean
                                  >
                                  > Ron Jeffries wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Hello, Jonathan. On Sunday, February 3, 2008, at 1:33:39 PM, you
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > What agile methods are you all using these days.
                                  > >
                                  > > > I recently saw Mike Cohn refer to Scrum as the most popular agile
                                  > > > method in a presentation.
                                  > >
                                  > > > I am a die hard XP'er - but I am running into more and more teams
                                  > > > using the Scrum terms (mostly at the business level where the XP
                                  > > > practices don't apply as much).
                                  > >
                                  > > > At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Just wondering
                                  if I am
                                  > > > the only one feeling this (and having to reconcile often between
                                  Scrum
                                  > > > and XP terms).
                                  > >
                                  > > I suspect that Cohn is right. The Scrum people have done a fantastic
                                  > > job of marketing their product. What has not happened reliably, is
                                  > > the transformation that Scrum promises, namely that the team will
                                  > > figure out what to do, by focusing on and removing obstacles. It
                                  > > appears that they don't get that part.
                                  > >
                                  > > So I've spent a lot of time helping Scrum teams move toward actually
                                  > > being able to reach DONE DONE. That's OK too ...
                                  > >
                                  > > Ron Jeffries
                                  > > www.XProgramming.com
                                  > > I try to Zen through it and keep my voice very mellow and low.
                                  > > Inside I am screaming and have a machine gun.
                                  > > Yin and Yang I figure.
                                  > > -- Tom Jeffries
                                  >
                                • Ron Jeffries
                                  Hello, Jean. On Tuesday, February 5, 2008, at 2:36:40 PM, you ... Scrum is a work planning and delivery cycle, no more. To accomplish anything with it, we
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Feb 12, 2008
                                    Hello, Jean. On Tuesday, February 5, 2008, at 2:36:40 PM, you
                                    wrote:

                                    > I've heard it said that Scrum is a project management
                                    > methodology, XP is a development methodology, and
                                    > the two fit well together. Does that may sense to you?

                                    Scrum is a work planning and delivery cycle, no more. To accomplish
                                    anything with it, we have to know how to do the work. To accomplish
                                    things well, we have to know how to do the work well. XP's practices
                                    are about how to do the work well.

                                    Jeff Sutherland, co-inventor of Scrum, says that he has never seen a
                                    highly productive Scrum team that doesn't do XP style practices. He
                                    concludes that they are not only compatible but necessary for high
                                    productivity.

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    Think! -- Aretha Franklin
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.