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Mary Poppendieck Jan 29 at Agile-Carolinas

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  • Joseph Little
    Hi, Mary Poppendieck will be speaking at Agile-Carolinas on Jan 29th. In Charlotte, NC. On Organizational Agility. With Q&A. Free. Contact me if you would
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 23, 2008
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      Hi,

      Mary Poppendieck will be speaking at Agile-Carolinas on Jan 29th. In
      Charlotte, NC. On Organizational Agility. With Q&A. Free. Contact
      me if you would like details.

      They wrote the books on Lean Software Development. In my opinion,
      very complementary with XP.

      Regards, Joe
    • Phlip
      ... Someone recently made the mistake of asking news:comp.software-eng about Lean. ... Curious how if some people like a Best Practice they will then go crazy
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 23, 2008
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        Joseph Little wrote:

        > They wrote the books on Lean Software Development. In my opinion,
        > very complementary with XP.

        Someone recently made the mistake of asking news:comp.software-eng about Lean.

        They got:

        > But when you understand those ideas, you see that much of the Lean concepts
        > (set-based development for example) cannot be aligned with "Agile" at all,
        > apart from the vaguries of the "Agile Manifesto" .

        > "Implementing Lean Software Development From Concept to Cash"
        > published in 2006 has word "cash" and widely refers to success stories
        > in manufacturing (such as Toyota) which makes "Lean" sound so
        > attractive from management point of view. All these ideas are great,
        > but are they applicable to software development? Hmm....

        > Set-based development (a key Lean concept) is not "Agile" .
        >
        > Lean is easily understood, and implementable, without reference to
        > "Agile" stuff (understanding of iterative development is IMHO a
        > sufficient pre-requisite) .

        >> Lean is Agile Software Development...

        > Stunning -- but hardly unexpected.

        Curious how if some people like a Best Practice they will then go crazy trying
        to claim it's not Agile...

        --
        Phlip
      • Joseph Little
        Hi Phlip, Well, I dunno about what the person said in your quote. I think Lean ideas enable one to make sense of a lot of Agile practices. And I still think
        Message 3 of 23 , Jan 23, 2008
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          Hi Phlip,

          Well, I dunno about what the person said in your quote. I think Lean
          ideas enable one to make sense of a lot of Agile practices. And I
          still think Agile and Lean are consistent (yes, Virginia, one can find
          a few differences between Lean Mfg and Agile SW Dev; that's why Lean
          Product Dev is different from Lean Mfg).

          Even lean is not doctrinaire about applying Lean ideas to a
          manufacturing effort, for example.

          My understanding is that the Poppendiecks very much consider
          themselves part of the Agile community. Their flavor of Agile (or
          rather, the way they wish to talk about Agile..) is Lean SW Dev or
          through a Lean lens. But they strongly endorse most (if not all) XP
          practices and all (most) Scrum practices, and I am sure other Agile
          practices as well (although I can't say I've tried to think that last
          bit through myself).

          Set-based development. Ummm. Not a key Lean idea to me. Taiichi
          Ohno, in his book on the Toyota Production System, says the main idea
          is don't over-produce. Sounds a lot to me like "Build the simplest
          thing that could possibly work, and then test." Set-based
          development, as I understand it, is just keeping one's options open in
          adapting to change. Seems Agile enough to me. Reminds me of Kent
          Beck talking about options theory in his 2nd edition.

          This all reminds me of a Yogi Berra quote: "Some people, if they don't
          already know it, you can't explain it to 'em."

          I'd rather find areas of agreement (and greater power) than find areas
          of disagreement (and make us all weaker).

          Regards, Joe


          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:
          >
          > Joseph Little wrote:
          >
          > > They wrote the books on Lean Software Development. In my opinion,
          > > very complementary with XP.
          >
          > Someone recently made the mistake of asking news:comp.software-eng
          about Lean.
          >
          > They got:
          >
          > > But when you understand those ideas, you see that much of the Lean
          concepts
          > > (set-based development for example) cannot be aligned with "Agile"
          at all,
          > > apart from the vaguries of the "Agile Manifesto" .
          >
          > > "Implementing Lean Software Development From Concept to Cash"
          > > published in 2006 has word "cash" and widely refers to success stories
          > > in manufacturing (such as Toyota) which makes "Lean" sound so
          > > attractive from management point of view. All these ideas are great,
          > > but are they applicable to software development? Hmm....
          >
          > > Set-based development (a key Lean concept) is not "Agile" .
          > >
          > > Lean is easily understood, and implementable, without reference to
          > > "Agile" stuff (understanding of iterative development is IMHO a
          > > sufficient pre-requisite) .
          >
          > >> Lean is Agile Software Development...
          >
          > > Stunning -- but hardly unexpected.
          >
          > Curious how if some people like a Best Practice they will then go
          crazy trying
          > to claim it's not Agile...
          >
          > --
          > Phlip
          >
        • Michael KENNY
          ... Does anyone know if the Poppendiecks have ever written a line of code? Just curious. Michael
          Message 4 of 23 , Jan 24, 2008
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            On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:02:46 -0000, you wrote:

            >My understanding is that the Poppendiecks very much consider
            >themselves part of the Agile community. Their flavor of Agile (or
            >rather, the way they wish to talk about Agile..) is Lean SW Dev or
            >through a Lean lens.

            Does anyone know if the Poppendiecks have ever written a line of code?
            Just curious.

            Michael
          • David Carlton
            ... Why do you ask? Also, what have you observed that causes you to think they might not have? David Carlton carlton@bactrian.org
            Message 5 of 23 , Jan 24, 2008
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              On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:56:58 +0100, Michael KENNY <michael.kenny@...> said:
              > On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:02:46 -0000, you wrote:

              >> My understanding is that the Poppendiecks very much consider
              >> themselves part of the Agile community. Their flavor of Agile (or
              >> rather, the way they wish to talk about Agile..) is Lean SW Dev or
              >> through a Lean lens.

              > Does anyone know if the Poppendiecks have ever written a line of code?
              > Just curious.

              Why do you ask? Also, what have you observed that causes you to think
              they might not have?

              David Carlton
              carlton@...
            • Mary Poppendieck
              ... Hi Michael, I was a process control programmer from 1967 to 1982 - about 14 years. I wrote tons of lines of code - mostly in assembly language and Fortran.
              Message 6 of 23 , Jan 24, 2008
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                --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Michael KENNY
                <michael.kenny@...> wrote:
                >
                > On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:02:46 -0000, you wrote:
                >
                > Does anyone know if the Poppendiecks have ever written a line of code?
                > Just curious.
                >
                > Michael
                >
                Hi Michael,

                I was a process control programmer from 1967 to 1982 - about 14 years.
                I wrote tons of lines of code - mostly in assembly language and Fortran.
                Admittedly, this was a LONG time ago, but I assure you, I was once a
                *very* good programmer. [:)] (We didn't call ourselves developers in
                those days.)

                Cheers!

                Mary Poppendieck



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michael KENNY
                ... Mary, thanks for your reply. It gives me some comfort to read of your time programming albeit in another era (even I have 6502 experience). I m interested
                Message 7 of 23 , Jan 26, 2008
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                  On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:55:25 -0000, you wrote:
                  >I was a process control programmer from 1967 to 1982 - about 14 years.
                  >I wrote tons of lines of code - mostly in assembly language and Fortran.
                  >Admittedly, this was a LONG time ago, but I assure you, I was once a
                  >*very* good programmer. [:)] (We didn't call ourselves developers in
                  >those days.)
                  Mary,
                  thanks for your reply. It gives me some comfort to read of your time
                  programming albeit in another era (even I have 6502 experience).
                  I'm interested in insights grounded in practice rather than theory.

                  (We might need to take these next questions to a different group?)
                  You talk about well and less structured projects. Do you have any data
                  for how many software projects (as a percentage say) fit in to these
                  categories - now and in the past - and if there is a change over time
                  why this might be.

                  With options you say options aren't free. How/when are the prices of
                  options communicated to the customer?

                  I'd be interested to know whether Lean is still considered useful in
                  manufacturing. And if so in which areas.

                  Michael
                • Phlip
                  ... Looks to me like MP went from... to... - programming the hardware driving assembly lines - coaching the humans operating assembly lines - coaching the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jan 26, 2008
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                    Michael KENNY wrote:

                    >> I was a process control programmer...

                    > I'm interested in insights grounded in practice rather than theory.

                    Looks to me like MP went from... to...

                    - programming the hardware driving assembly lines
                    - coaching the humans operating assembly lines
                    - coaching the managers of assembly lines
                    - coaching the managers of programmers

                    In other words, she went from being a cat to herding cat herders...

                    > I'd be interested to know whether Lean is still considered useful in
                    > manufacturing. And if so in which areas.

                    All of them.

                    The most important thing to teach managers (especially the ones now ruining
                    certain industries) is to trust your line workers, and distribute the
                    decision-making among them as much as possible. Consider a guy who pulls parts
                    from a bin and bolts them to a larger part. If you don't give that guy control
                    over quality - to stop the line if a part is defective - and quantity - to order
                    more parts when his bin gets low - then you just threw away his capacity as a
                    knowledge-worker. Bosses who make everyones' decisions for them cause waste.

                    --
                    Phlip
                  • Mary Poppendieck
                    Hi Michael, You ask some challanging questions that I can t really figure out how to answer in a short space - more because I don t understand what you are
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 27, 2008
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                      Hi Michael,

                      You ask some challanging questions that I can't really figure out how to
                      answer in a short space - more because I don't understand what you are
                      really asking, I suppose. But the last question I can answer easily:
                      As counterintuative as they were when first introduced in the 1980's,
                      lean principles are now reguarded as the only way to do good
                      manufacturing. It's not that everyone is successful with lean - far
                      from it - but low inventories, just-in-time flow, pull scheduling,
                      quality at the source, continuous improvement, etc. are considered the
                      benchmark for good manufacutring practice these days.

                      Mary Poppendieck


                      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Michael KENNY
                      <michael.kenny@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:55:25 -0000, you wrote:
                      > >I was a process control programmer from 1967 to 1982 - about 14
                      years.
                      > >I wrote tons of lines of code - mostly in assembly language and
                      Fortran.
                      > >Admittedly, this was a LONG time ago, but I assure you, I was once a
                      > >*very* good programmer. [:)] (We didn't call ourselves developers in
                      > >those days.)
                      > Mary,
                      > thanks for your reply. It gives me some comfort to read of your time
                      > programming albeit in another era (even I have 6502 experience).
                      > I'm interested in insights grounded in practice rather than theory.
                      >
                      > (We might need to take these next questions to a different group?)
                      > You talk about well and less structured projects. Do you have any data
                      > for how many software projects (as a percentage say) fit in to these
                      > categories - now and in the past - and if there is a change over time
                      > why this might be.
                      >
                      > With options you say options aren't free. How/when are the prices of
                      > options communicated to the customer?
                      >
                      > I'd be interested to know whether Lean is still considered useful in
                      > manufacturing. And if so in which areas.
                      >
                      > Michael
                      >
                    • Mike Vizdos
                      ... might be a good reason to attend the talk :). Sorry I will not be able to make it down there. - mike www.implementingscrum.com www.michaelvizdos.com ...
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jan 27, 2008
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                        ... might be a good reason to attend the talk :).

                        Sorry I will not be able to make it down there.

                        - mike
                        www.implementingscrum.com
                        www.michaelvizdos.com

                        n Jan 27, 2008, at 10:04 PM, Mary Poppendieck wrote:

                        >
                        > Hi Michael,
                        >
                        > You ask some challanging questions that I can't really figure out
                        > how to
                        > answer in a short space - more because I don't understand what you are
                        > really asking, I suppose. But the last question I can answer easily:
                        > As counterintuative as they were when first introduced in the 1980's,
                        > lean principles are now reguarded as the only way to do good
                        > manufacturing. It's not that everyone is successful with lean - far
                        > from it - but low inventories, just-in-time flow, pull scheduling,
                        > quality at the source, continuous improvement, etc. are considered the
                        > benchmark for good manufacutring practice these days.
                        >
                        > Mary Poppendieck
                        >
                        > --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, Michael KENNY
                        > <michael.kenny@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:55:25 -0000, you wrote:
                        > > >I was a process control programmer from 1967 to 1982 - about 14
                        > years.
                        > > >I wrote tons of lines of code - mostly in assembly language and
                        > Fortran.
                        > > >Admittedly, this was a LONG time ago, but I assure you, I was
                        > once a
                        > > >*very* good programmer. [:)] (We didn't call ourselves developers
                        > in
                        > > >those days.)
                        > > Mary,
                        > > thanks for your reply. It gives me some comfort to read of your time
                        > > programming albeit in another era (even I have 6502 experience).
                        > > I'm interested in insights grounded in practice rather than theory.
                        > >
                        > > (We might need to take these next questions to a different group?)
                        > > You talk about well and less structured projects. Do you have any
                        > data
                        > > for how many software projects (as a percentage say) fit in to these
                        > > categories - now and in the past - and if there is a change over
                        > time
                        > > why this might be.
                        > >
                        > > With options you say options aren't free. How/when are the prices of
                        > > options communicated to the customer?
                        > >
                        > > I'd be interested to know whether Lean is still considered useful in
                        > > manufacturing. And if so in which areas.
                        > >
                        > > Michael
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Don Gray
                        Mike, ... But I will! Now all I have left to do is read the 40 emails in leanagilescrum. -- Don (336)374-7591 Change your thoughts and you change your
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jan 28, 2008
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                          Mike,

                          > Sorry I will not be able to make it down there.

                          But I will!

                          Now all I have left to do is read the 40 emails in leanagilescrum.
                          <sigh>

                          --
                          Don (336)374-7591

                          Change your thoughts and you change your world.
                          Norman Vincent Peale

                          Get some new thoughts at the AYE Conference Nov 2 - 5, 2008
                          www.AYEconference.com
                        • Michael KENNY
                          ... There was (notorious) paper about 10ish years ago that drew a parallel between programming and managing people - can anyone remember it? ... Advice from
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jan 30, 2008
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                            On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 05:31:28 -0800, you wrote:

                            >>> I was a process control programmer...
                            There was (notorious) paper about 10ish years ago that drew a parallel
                            between programming and managing people - can anyone remember it?

                            >Looks to me like MP went from... to...
                            > - programming the hardware driving assembly lines
                            > - coaching the humans operating assembly lines
                            > - coaching the managers of assembly lines
                            > - coaching the managers of programmers
                            >In other words, she went from being a cat to herding cat herders...
                            Advice from people who have never programmed - ignore
                            Advice from people who no longer program - doubt
                            Advice from people who program - consider

                            >>> I'd be interested to know whether Lean is still considered useful in
                            >> manufacturing. And if so in which areas.
                            >All of them.
                            Really?

                            >The most important thing to teach managers (especially the ones now ruining
                            >certain industries) is to trust your line workers, and distribute the
                            >decision-making among them as much as possible. Consider a guy who pulls parts
                            >from a bin and bolts them to a larger part. If you don't give that guy control
                            >over quality - to stop the line if a part is defective - and quantity - to order
                            >more parts when his bin gets low - then you just threw away his capacity as a
                            >knowledge-worker. Bosses who make everyones' decisions for them cause waste.
                            Since most manufactured goods these days come from China, where I
                            doubt there's much attention paid to workers' opinions, I wonder if
                            there isn't another story to be told.

                            Michael
                          • Ron Jeffries
                            Hello, Michael. On Wednesday, January 30, 2008, at 6:01:24 AM, you ... Advice from moderator ... show respect. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com To follow the
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jan 30, 2008
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                              Hello, Michael. On Wednesday, January 30, 2008, at 6:01:24 AM, you
                              wrote:

                              > Advice from people who have never programmed - ignore
                              > Advice from people who no longer program - doubt
                              > Advice from people who program - consider

                              Advice from moderator ... show respect.

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              To follow the path:
                              Look to the master; Follow the master; Walk with the master;
                              See through the master; Become the master. -- Modern Zen Poem
                            • Michael KENNY
                              On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 03:04:17 -0000, you wrote: Mary, ... In other words, is the need for LSD real or imagined. ... To use your example of a farmer securing a
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jan 30, 2008
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                                On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 03:04:17 -0000, you wrote:

                                Mary,
                                >You ask some challanging questions that I can't really figure out how to
                                >answer in a short space - more because I don't understand what you are
                                >really asking, I suppose.
                                Ok, I'll try again:
                                >> You talk about well and less structured projects. Do you have any data
                                >> for how many software projects (as a percentage say) fit in to these
                                >> categories - now and in the past - and if there is a change over time
                                >> why this might be.
                                In other words, is the need for LSD real or imagined.

                                >> With options you say options aren't free. How/when are the prices of
                                >> options communicated to the customer?
                                To use your example of a farmer securing a minimum price for his/her
                                produce.
                                Is the customer the farmer (produce = money) and s/he pays me
                                explicitly say for an option on a minimum set of features. Come
                                delivery time the customer would like more features (just as the
                                farmer would like a higher price) for the same money or the same
                                features for less money (delivered e.g by some other software house)
                                and can choose not to exercise this option.
                                Or am I the farmer securing a minimum price for my produce
                                (software) by paying for an option (with the customer X). At delivery
                                time I find customer Y will pay more, and so I don't exercise the
                                option of selling to customer X.
                                In each case these options cost money - how much?
                                How are options mechanisms/prices negotiated in comparison say to
                                effort based and fixed price contracts?

                                >quality at the source, continuous improvement, etc. are considered the
                                >benchmark for good manufacutring practice these days.
                                What is its postion, in your opinion, in the services industry e.g.
                                Banking etc.

                                Michael
                              • Michael KENNY
                                ... Ron, Oh dear, thanks for your advice which I do consider ;) To ignore is to disrespect? To doubt is to disrespect? To consider is to disrespect? Surely it
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jan 30, 2008
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                                  On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:36:29 -0500, you wrote:

                                  >Hello, Michael. On Wednesday, January 30, 2008, at 6:01:24 AM, you
                                  >wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> Advice from people who have never programmed - ignore
                                  >> Advice from people who no longer program - doubt
                                  >> Advice from people who program - consider
                                  >
                                  >Advice from moderator ... show respect.

                                  Ron,

                                  Oh dear, thanks for your advice which I do consider ;)

                                  To ignore is to disrespect?
                                  To doubt is to disrespect?
                                  To consider is to disrespect?

                                  Surely it was such "disrespect" of BigM that led to XP?
                                  Was I being disrespectful? To whom?

                                  Please explain.

                                  Michael

                                  P.S. How do you filter Advice?
                                • Ron Jeffries
                                  Hello, Michael. On Wednesday, January 30, 2008, at 8:09:05 AM, you ... Mary was asked for her programming experience. She gave it. You ranked her advice as to
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jan 30, 2008
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                                    Hello, Michael. On Wednesday, January 30, 2008, at 8:09:05 AM, you
                                    wrote:

                                    >>Hello, Michael. On Wednesday, January 30, 2008, at 6:01:24 AM, you
                                    >>wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >>> Advice from people who have never programmed - ignore
                                    >>> Advice from people who no longer program - doubt
                                    >>> Advice from people who program - consider
                                    >>
                                    >>Advice from moderator ... show respect.

                                    > Ron,

                                    > Oh dear, thanks for your advice which I do consider ;)

                                    > To ignore is to disrespect?
                                    > To doubt is to disrespect?
                                    > To consider is to disrespect?

                                    > Surely it was such "disrespect" of BigM that led to XP?
                                    > Was I being disrespectful? To whom?

                                    > Please explain.

                                    Mary was asked for her programming experience. She gave it. You
                                    ranked her advice as to be "doubted", not even "considered".

                                    That seems to me to be less than respectful to say, even if it
                                    happens to be what you're going to do.

                                    And in the case of Mary Poppendieck, my advice would be that people
                                    should "consider carefully", not "doubt".

                                    I hope that clarifies my view.

                                    Regards,

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    Just because XP doesn't talk about how to make fire, should we assume it
                                    requires us to use sticks? -- Richard MacDonald
                                  • Matt Swaffer
                                    Michael, With regard to your prices question, let me rephrase your question the way I understand it, then you can correct my understanding if I got it wrong.
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jan 30, 2008
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                                      Michael,



                                      With regard to your prices question, let me rephrase your question the way I
                                      understand it, then you can correct my understanding if I got it wrong. You
                                      seem to be referring to "options" in the Wall Street sense, i.e. I pay for
                                      the option of buying something at a set price in the future (or selling
                                      depending on whether you are talking about puts or calls). If you choose
                                      not to exercise your option then you simply let it go and you do not make
                                      the purchase or sale. This is fundamentally different from what farmers do
                                      when they sell futures contracts. Futures are obligations to buy or sell at
                                      a given price in the future, not an option to buy or sell. There are of
                                      course traders who buy options on futures.



                                      Another sense of the term "options" however would be features of a software
                                      program. I may be wrong, but I believe that this type of option is what
                                      Mary might have been referring to by saying "options aren't free". Again, I
                                      could be wrong because I am not sure the context of that discussion.



                                      You can, however, apply the trading options metaphor to software development
                                      by looking at the opportunity costs of developing one feature over another.
                                      In a sense you are "spending money" up front on an option (feature) in the
                                      hopes that you will be able to sell it later at a given price. So the
                                      question I believe you are asking is when is this information communicated
                                      in an Agile environment. It seems that you are in a round-about way asking
                                      "how do I do an ROI calculation up front if I don't have a cost up front?"



                                      Here is where the difference between "options" and "futures" comes into
                                      play. A farmer sells future contracts because he wants the stability of
                                      knowing up front what the ROI will be for a given crop. Funding the crop up
                                      front with futures contracts allows for stability, even though the market
                                      itself may be volatile. An options trader however can't really (although
                                      some think they can) calculate the ROI for a given options investment. If
                                      you can find customers willing to pay you entirely up front for your
                                      software then perhaps calculating your ROI would make sense. Most customers
                                      however prefer to pay for software that is "in hand". Granted, securing
                                      capital for a project might be a case for calculating ROI up front.



                                      There are a lot of ways of looking at these metaphors and gaining
                                      information from them, but my understanding of Lean Software Development is
                                      that you incrementally deliver value to the customer by producing the
                                      highest value functionality first. The customer communicates to you what he
                                      / she is most willing to pay for (or willing to pay most for?) and at the
                                      same time you (the developer / manager) communicate to them what that will
                                      cost. The advantage here is that you don't know what the market will be in
                                      12 months so if you plan for this month you have a better chance of making
                                      the right choice. So once you know what is most valuable right now, you
                                      develop it.



                                      Imagine if a farmer had the ability to switch which crops he was growing
                                      every month (and have of course only a month's worth of output) so that he
                                      could follow the market very closely. With only a one month lead time, a
                                      farmer wouldn't need to sell futures contracts since he would be able to
                                      produce exactly what the consumer wanted at a price and cost close to what
                                      they were willing to pay when he first planted the crop.



                                      Hopefully I understood your question correctly but if not please clarify
                                      because the discussion is interesting.



                                      Matt





                                      From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael KENNY
                                      Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 5:40 AM
                                      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Mary Poppendieck Jan 29 at Agile-Carolinas



                                      On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 03:04:17 -0000, you wrote:

                                      Mary,
                                      >You ask some challanging questions that I can't really figure out how to
                                      >answer in a short space - more because I don't understand what you are
                                      >really asking, I suppose.
                                      Ok, I'll try again:
                                      >> You talk about well and less structured projects. Do you have any data
                                      >> for how many software projects (as a percentage say) fit in to these
                                      >> categories - now and in the past - and if there is a change over time
                                      >> why this might be.
                                      In other words, is the need for LSD real or imagined.

                                      >> With options you say options aren't free. How/when are the prices of
                                      >> options communicated to the customer?
                                      To use your example of a farmer securing a minimum price for his/her
                                      produce.
                                      Is the customer the farmer (produce = money) and s/he pays me
                                      explicitly say for an option on a minimum set of features. Come
                                      delivery time the customer would like more features (just as the
                                      farmer would like a higher price) for the same money or the same
                                      features for less money (delivered e.g by some other software house)
                                      and can choose not to exercise this option.
                                      Or am I the farmer securing a minimum price for my produce
                                      (software) by paying for an option (with the customer X). At delivery
                                      time I find customer Y will pay more, and so I don't exercise the
                                      option of selling to customer X.
                                      In each case these options cost money - how much?
                                      How are options mechanisms/prices negotiated in comparison say to
                                      effort based and fixed price contracts?

                                      >quality at the source, continuous improvement, etc. are considered the
                                      >benchmark for good manufacutring practice these days.
                                      What is its postion, in your opinion, in the services industry e.g.
                                      Banking etc.

                                      Michael





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Michael KENNY
                                      On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:32:01 -0500, you wrote: Ron, As Kent said at the keynote for XP2001(or 2) you have to distrust advice given by the over 40s. ... To be
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jan 31, 2008
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                                        On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:32:01 -0500, you wrote:

                                        Ron,

                                        As Kent said at the keynote for XP2001(or 2) you have to distrust
                                        advice given by the over 40s.

                                        >Mary was asked for her programming experience. She gave it. You
                                        >ranked her advice as to be "doubted", not even "considered".
                                        To be clear, my intention was not to be disrespectful, particularly
                                        not to Mary. I do apologise if I caused offence.

                                        Doubt is healthy, especially when following Advice is going to be
                                        linked to a great deal of effort. It also depends what you have to
                                        believe.

                                        >That seems to me to be less than respectful to say, even if it
                                        >happens to be what you're going to do.
                                        That's why I'm reading the book, asking questions, trying to
                                        understand, right?

                                        >And in the case of Mary Poppendieck, my advice would be that people
                                        >should "consider carefully", not "doubt".
                                        Perhaps we can agree on slightly different words.

                                        In the case of Lean, the fact is that manufacturing has all but
                                        disappeared, and what survives is often heavily subsidised.
                                        For all the words and theory you have to ask which lesson you are
                                        learning.

                                        Michael
                                      • Kent Beck
                                        Michael, I said that ironically because I d just turned 40. I only had one year left ... As far as who to trust, there are many reasons to trust or distrust
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jan 31, 2008
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                                          Michael,

                                          I said that ironically because I'd just turned 40. I only had one year left
                                          :-) Now it's too late.

                                          As far as who to trust, there are many reasons to trust or distrust advice.
                                          Freshness of experience is one issue. So is breadth of experience. So is
                                          context and perspective. But the biggest issue for me is integrity. I trust
                                          advice from people who speak from the heart, who don't show signs that they
                                          are working for their own purposes without regard to mine, who do what they
                                          say they will do.

                                          One thing I like about the Poppendiecks' books is that I get the sense that
                                          they talk about things they know well and they don't talk about things they
                                          don't know well. It's not like they are saying, [putting on crochety old
                                          person voice] "I don't know why you punks think you need these dad-blamed
                                          new-fangled screen editors. Line editors were good enough for my pappy,
                                          they're good enough for me, and they're doggone well good enough for you."
                                          They talk about the context of software development, and that context hasn't
                                          changed since the beginning of commercial programming.

                                          I learn more from a conversation with an obsolete programmer with integrity
                                          than I do from the latest hotshot who's got a bunch of games going on that
                                          have nothing to do with the topic.

                                          Cheers,

                                          Kent

                                          _____

                                          From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                          [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael KENNY
                                          Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:34 AM
                                          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Mary Poppendieck Jan 29 at Agile-Carolinas



                                          On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:32:01 -0500, you wrote:

                                          Ron,

                                          As Kent said at the keynote for XP2001(or 2) you have to distrust
                                          advice given by the over 40s.

                                          >Mary was asked for her programming experience. She gave it. You
                                          >ranked her advice as to be "doubted", not even "considered".
                                          To be clear, my intention was not to be disrespectful, particularly
                                          not to Mary. I do apologise if I caused offence.

                                          Doubt is healthy, especially when following Advice is going to be
                                          linked to a great deal of effort. It also depends what you have to
                                          believe.

                                          >That seems to me to be less than respectful to say, even if it
                                          >happens to be what you're going to do.
                                          That's why I'm reading the book, asking questions, trying to
                                          understand, right?

                                          >And in the case of Mary Poppendieck, my advice would be that people
                                          >should "consider carefully", not "doubt".
                                          Perhaps we can agree on slightly different words.

                                          In the case of Lean, the fact is that manufacturing has all but
                                          disappeared, and what survives is often heavily subsidised.
                                          For all the words and theory you have to ask which lesson you are
                                          learning.

                                          Michael





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • linux_tim
                                          I just can t agree with you, even by trying Would you listen to a lawyer who doesn t program, or a health inspector, or an electrician, or a doctor? Maybe
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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                                            I just can't agree with you, even by trying

                                            Would you listen to a lawyer who doesn't program, or a health inspector, or an electrician, or a doctor?

                                            Maybe there is more than just programming in XP. The Poppendiecks are expert in a great number of things you need to know, and can certainly tell good programming advice from bad.

                                            Then maybe there is more the world and its citizens can teach than you are allowing in your three-part philosophy (as presented).

                                            Im not saying that they're incapable of an error in judgement but there is plenty of evidence that their advice can be very good indeed

                                            I write programs please consider that I might be right about this.




                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Michael KENNY <michael.kenny@...>
                                            Sent: January 30, 2008 5:01 AM
                                            To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [XP] Re: Mary Poppendieck Jan 29 at Agile-Carolinas

                                            On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 05:31:28 -0800, you wrote:

                                            >>> I was a process control programmer...
                                            There was (notorious) paper about 10ish years ago that drew a parallel
                                            between programming and managing people - can anyone remember it?

                                            >Looks to me like MP went from... to...
                                            > - programming the hardware driving assembly lines
                                            > - coaching the humans operating assembly lines
                                            > - coaching the managers of assembly lines
                                            > - coaching the managers of programmers
                                            >In other words, she went from being a cat to herding cat herders...
                                            Advice from people who have never programmed - ignore
                                            Advice from people who no longer program - doubt
                                            Advice from people who program - consider

                                            >>> I'd be interested to know whether Lean is still considered useful in
                                            >> manufacturing. And if so in which areas.
                                            >All of them.
                                            Really?

                                            >The most important thing to teach managers (especially the ones now ruining
                                            >certain industries) is to trust your line workers, and distribute the
                                            >decision-making among them as much as possible. Consider a guy who pulls parts
                                            >from a bin and bolts them to a larger part. If you don't give that guy control
                                            >over quality - to stop the line if a part is defective - and quantity - to order
                                            >more parts when his bin gets low - then you just threw away his capacity as a
                                            >knowledge-worker. Bosses who make everyones' decisions for them cause waste.
                                            Since most manufactured goods these days come from China, where I
                                            doubt there's much attention paid to workers' opinions, I wonder if
                                            there isn't another story to be told.

                                            Michael


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                                          • Ilja Preuss
                                            ... Doubt is healthy as long as it keeps us alert, as long as it keeps us from accepting advice blindly. It becomes unhealthy, in my opinion, when it leads us
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 10, 2008
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                                              Michael KENNY wrote:

                                              > Doubt is healthy, especially when following Advice is going to be
                                              > linked to a great deal of effort. It also depends what you have to
                                              > believe.

                                              Doubt is healthy as long as it keeps us alert, as long as it keeps us
                                              from accepting advice blindly.

                                              It becomes unhealthy, in my opinion, when it leads us to outrightly
                                              reject advice just because it comes from someone with experience that is
                                              significantly different from our own.

                                              The latter is what your post seemed to advise.

                                              Cheers, Ilja
                                            • Michael KENNY
                                              On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:03:54 +0100, you wrote: Ilja, ... Exactly ... All I said was doubt - how did you get to reject outright? Michael
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Feb 12, 2008
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                                                On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:03:54 +0100, you wrote:

                                                Ilja,
                                                >Doubt is healthy as long as it keeps us alert, as long as it keeps us
                                                >from accepting advice blindly.
                                                Exactly

                                                >It becomes unhealthy, in my opinion, when it leads us to outrightly
                                                >reject advice just because it comes from someone with experience that is
                                                >significantly different from our own.

                                                >The latter is what your post seemed to advise.
                                                All I said was doubt - how did you get to reject outright?

                                                Michael
                                              • Ilja Preuss
                                                ... Perhaps the problem is English being not my natural language. To me, to not reject something, it seems that I at least need to consider it. But consider
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Feb 16, 2008
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                                                  Michael KENNY wrote:
                                                  > On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:03:54 +0100, you wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Ilja,
                                                  >> Doubt is healthy as long as it keeps us alert, as long as it keeps us
                                                  >>from accepting advice blindly.
                                                  > Exactly
                                                  >
                                                  >> It becomes unhealthy, in my opinion, when it leads us to outrightly
                                                  >> reject advice just because it comes from someone with experience that is
                                                  >> significantly different from our own.
                                                  >
                                                  >> The latter is what your post seemed to advise.

                                                  > All I said was doubt - how did you get to reject outright?

                                                  Perhaps the problem is English being not my natural language.

                                                  To me, to not reject something, it seems that I at least need to
                                                  consider it. But "consider" is what you seemed to reserve for "people
                                                  who program". That's why I understood "doubt" to be a form of "reject".

                                                  What am I missing?

                                                  Cheers, Ilja
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