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Re: [XP] FIT is bad for automation (was How are you doing 1-week iterations?)

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  • Edmund Schweppe
    ... I presume that by regression testing you mean end-to-end testing of the entire application, using some tool (like Selenium) to drive a test instance of
    Message 1 of 51 , Dec 1, 2007
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      Michael Dubakov wrote:
      >> I'll agree that Fit tests are not automated *unit* tests. They are
      >> automated *acceptance* tests. There are, as you correctly note, huge
      >> differences between the two - but they are *both* automated.
      > No. FIT is communication tool. It should not be used for regression
      > testing. And regression testing is what I mean by automated tests.

      I presume that by "regression testing" you mean end-to-end testing of
      the entire application, using some tool (like Selenium) to drive a test
      instance of the user interface?

      That's certainly an important *subset* of what I would consider
      regression testing, but it's not *all* of what I consider regression
      testing. Regression tests, to me, include *any* tests that I can run to
      make sure that what worked yesterday still works today, even after I
      change stuff. So both the xUnit tests and the Fit/FitNesse tests count
      as "regression tests" to me, even if they weren't written purely for
      regression testing purposes.

      I've heard that some folks have managed to get FIT to drive their UIs,
      but it sounds like a royal PITA and I've never tried that myself.

      --
      Edmund Schweppe, President
      Firepool Consulting, Inc. - Effective Software Development
      (978) 621-7245 - http://www.firepoolconsulting.com
    • Simon Jones
      ... Reasonably complex in my previous incarnation. One internal product management system and a publicly facing corporate webshop and customer
      Message 51 of 51 , Dec 3, 2007
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        <snip>

        > How complex is your domain? How are you finding, with Selenium
        tests:
        >
        Reasonably complex in my previous incarnation. One internal product
        management system and a publicly facing corporate webshop and
        customer self-serve.

        > 1) Evolving the tests (or is your ui very stable)?
        Not too bad, but, as the UI changed quite a bit Selenium tests can
        become quite fragile. One of the ways we mitigated this was to use
        another web system (OpenACS) as a test producer. Because its TCL
        based manipulating text and creating dynamic pages is easy, so often
        Selenium tests became TCL web pages designed to dynamically generate
        the required selenium based on querying the application.

        > 2) Speed of running (and the impact on feedback time)?
        Can be slow yes.. Using firefox and a few tweaks helped though.

        > 3) Their value in thinking about the domain?
        This is where I think selenium wins and also where its useful when
        the UI is actually very important.

        Selenium is technical enough that you can do quite powerful things
        with it. Its simple enough that any tester can pick it up quite
        easily and its /visible/ enough that the customer can /see/ what the
        test is doing.

        Although Selenese tests can become quite time consuming to manage, in
        our case it was worth it becuase such importance was placed on the
        behaviour and appearance of the website under test. Things like
        whether certain text appeared, certain HTMl directives were in the
        page, certain flows behaved as expected were all quite high priority
        for our customer.

        But, from a personal POV I would highly recommend OpenACS as a pretty
        neat 'testing platform'. The TCL driven architecture (and AOLServer)
        were pretty much ahead of their time a few years ago, but they still
        perform quite well and most importantly its easy to build web stuff
        quickly... TCL always was a pretty good language for test
        development, even before agile.
        >
        > Cheers, Rick
        >
        > Michael Dubakov wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > ...
        > >
        > > But we do write regression tests to make sure that all working as
        > > expected. And regression tests on Selenium are MUCH easier to
        create
        > > and support.
        > >
        > > Michael Dubakov
        > > http://www.targetprocess.com <http://www.targetprocess.com>
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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