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Fwd: [xp-jobs] Engineers for big scale Continuous Integration at Google (Mountain View)

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  • Ron Jeffries
    Ron Jeffries , at 9/10/2007 at 9:30 AM, hopes that you will find this interesting: Originally from: Mark Striebeck
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 10, 2007
      Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>, at 9/10/2007 at 9:30 AM,
      hopes that you will find this interesting:

      Originally from: Mark Striebeck <mark.striebeck@...>
      To: xp-jobs@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, September 7, 2007, 7:36:15 PM
      Subject: [xp-jobs] Engineers for big scale Continuous Integration at Google (Mountain View)

      Ron says:

      I thought this was interesting and sounded way cool, so wanted to
      share it and see if anyone wanted to talk about it.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Only the hand that erases can write the true thing. -- Meister Eckhart

      ===8<==============Original message text===============
      At Google we are taking continuous integration to another level. All our
      products are getting more and more integrated – and the traditional
      one-product continuous build works less and less. So, we are working on a
      continuous integration system that runs all affected tests across the entire
      Google code base for every change - and returns the results within minutes!
      The key is that we use the Google production cluster to massively
      parallelize building the code and running the tests.

      So, if you are experienced in continuous integration, dependency analysis
      and related techniques and are interested in working with the infrastructure
      that powers Google Search, Google Maps and all the other Google products,
      then you should apply at https://www.google.com/jobs/application/application.
      Or feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      Yahoo! Groups Links




      ===8<===========End of original message text===========
    • Cory Foy
      ... One of the things I really liked watching the Google presentation at Agile 2007 was that they didn t try to pass agile, Agile, or agile techniques it as a
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 10, 2007
        Ron Jeffries wrote:
        > ===8<==============Original message text===============
        > At Google we are taking continuous integration to another level. All our
        > products are getting more and more integrated – and the traditional
        > one-product continuous build works less and less. So, we are working on a
        > continuous integration system that runs all affected tests across the entire
        > Google code base for every change - and returns the results within minutes!
        > The key is that we use the Google production cluster to massively
        > parallelize building the code and running the tests.

        One of the things I really liked watching the Google presentation at
        Agile 2007 was that they didn't try to pass agile, Agile, or agile
        techniques it as a top-down kind of thing. It really seems like they
        believe in a bottom-up, let the market decide way of working.

        They also talked about having big test days where they pruned,
        reorganized and fixed up all of their tests. They had a very cool map
        which showed where all of the changes were coming in, and a graph of
        what was passing before and what was passing now.

        That said - does anyone think it is possible to bring this kind of
        change top-down, or does an approach like this - where you allow people
        to create teams, evangelize to others (even giving them budgets) always
        seem like the best way to go?

        --
        Cory Foy
        http://www.cornetdesign.com
      • George Dinwiddie
        ... It seems to me that Google s success in this *is* top-down, though not top-down agile. It s top-down delegation of decisions to people doing the work,
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 10, 2007
          On Mon, September 10, 2007 09:39, Cory Foy wrote:
          > One of the things I really liked watching the Google presentation at
          > Agile 2007 was that they didn't try to pass agile, Agile, or agile
          > techniques it as a top-down kind of thing. It really seems like they
          > believe in a bottom-up, let the market decide way of working.
          > ...
          > That said - does anyone think it is possible to bring this kind of
          > change top-down, or does an approach like this - where you allow people
          > to create teams, evangelize to others (even giving them budgets) always
          > seem like the best way to go?

          It seems to me that Google's success in this *is* top-down, though not
          top-down agile. It's top-down delegation of decisions to people doing the
          work, isnt' it? The rest follows from that.

          - George

          --
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
          Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
          Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        • Cory Foy
          ... Perhaps. I hadn t thought about that angle. So I guess there are two ways to get to that place: - Senior leadership realizes that they are hiring some of
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 10, 2007
            George Dinwiddie wrote:
            > It seems to me that Google's success in this *is* top-down, though not
            > top-down agile. It's top-down delegation of decisions to people doing the
            > work, isnt' it? The rest follows from that.

            Perhaps. I hadn't thought about that angle. So I guess there are two
            ways to get to that place:

            - Senior leadership realizes that they are hiring some of the best and
            brightest, and let them figure out the best way to work - even if that
            challenges their own ideas of the best way to work.

            - Senior leadership pushes "the way" down to the teams. The teams
            secretly build a faction against that (perhaps doing XP, Crystal or
            Scrum). Said teams are seen as extremely successful, and when management
            gets word of it, they let it be since they are producing.

            Seems like it would be hard to tell the difference between actively
            encouraging innovation from the top down, and senior leaders being
            apathetic as long as results are happening.

            --
            Cory Foy
            http://www.cornetdesign.com
          • Ron Jeffries
            Hello, Cory. On Monday, September 10, 2007, at 9:39:13 AM, you ... I think: 1. Without top-down support, this kind of change is not long-term viable.
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 10, 2007
              Hello, Cory. On Monday, September 10, 2007, at 9:39:13 AM, you
              wrote:

              > That said - does anyone think it is possible to bring this kind of
              > change top-down, or does an approach like this - where you allow people
              > to create teams, evangelize to others (even giving them budgets) always
              > seem like the best way to go?

              I think:

              1. Without top-down support, this kind of change is not long-term
              viable. Management must do the right things to keep it going.

              2. It may be possible, with the right top-down support, to induce
              teams to go this way, by asking them for things they can do more
              easily if they "go Agile/XP". This would have to be backed up with
              training and coaching support for best results.

              3. It is very difficult to "impose" these ideas, especially in the
              kind of environment that would try to impose ideas. I would be
              pessimistic about the chances for success in such a situation.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Find the simple path to what works and follow it,
              always looking for a simpler path. -- Patrick D. Smith
            • George Dinwiddie
              ... From what I know of Google, I think this might be the case. It could, of course, just be good PR. ... This sounds very difficult to accomplish, to me.
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 10, 2007
                On Mon, September 10, 2007 11:46, Cory Foy wrote:
                > George Dinwiddie wrote:
                >> It seems to me that Google's success in this *is* top-down, though not
                >> top-down agile. It's top-down delegation of decisions to people doing
                >> the
                >> work, isnt' it? The rest follows from that.
                >
                > Perhaps. I hadn't thought about that angle. So I guess there are two
                > ways to get to that place:
                >
                > - Senior leadership realizes that they are hiring some of the best and
                > brightest, and let them figure out the best way to work - even if that
                > challenges their own ideas of the best way to work.

                From what I "know" of Google, I think this might be the case. It could,
                of course, just be good PR.

                > - Senior leadership pushes "the way" down to the teams. The teams
                > secretly build a faction against that (perhaps doing XP, Crystal or
                > Scrum). Said teams are seen as extremely successful, and when management
                > gets word of it, they let it be since they are producing.

                This sounds very difficult to accomplish, to me.

                > Seems like it would be hard to tell the difference between actively
                > encouraging innovation from the top down, and senior leaders being
                > apathetic as long as results are happening.

                I would think that the difference would be visible in the amount of
                communication between the senior leaders and the developers.

                - George

                --
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
                Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
                Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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