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Re: [XP] Telepresence with XP teams?

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  • Phlip
    ... I don t know about your pipes, but on ours VNC is too freakin slow. Can I hold out for a holograph of a real pair sitting next to me? -- Phlip
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 1, 2007
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      William Pietri wrote:

      > It seems to me that one of the big problems with remote participants and
      > XP is that one has to consciously act to pull them in to a
      > conversation. I'm wondering if even a cheap telepresence rig would help
      > chip away at that.

      I don't know about your pipes, but on ours VNC is too freakin' slow.

      Can I hold out for a holograph of a real pair sitting next to me?

      --
      Phlip
      http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596510657/
      "Test Driven Ajax (on Rails)"
      assert_xpath, assert_javascript, & assert_ajax
    • William Pietri
      ... Amen to that. However, I was thinking about something a little different. More like a window between two offices to make them one. Except with bits. Not
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 1, 2007
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        Phlip wrote:
        > I don't know about your pipes, but on ours VNC is too freakin' slow.
        >

        Amen to that.

        However, I was thinking about something a little different. More like a
        window between two offices to make them one. Except with bits. Not for
        pairing, but for chatting with colleagues.


        > Can I hold out for a holograph of a real pair sitting next to me?
        >

        That's the ideal. Then you wouldn't even have to say, "Would you like a
        mint? No? Really, they're *excellent* mints. You should have one."

        William
      • Phlip
        ... And the holograph of my room would be ... straightened up. (-; -- Phlip
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 1, 2007
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          William Pietri wrote:

          > That's the ideal. Then you wouldn't even have to say, "Would you like a
          > mint? No? Really, they're *excellent* mints. You should have one."

          And the holograph of my room would be ... straightened up. (-;

          --
          Phlip
        • Kent Beck
          William, I have been telepresent on several teams for the past few years. I am mostly coding these days, so I pair remotely as much as 15 hours a week. I
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 5, 2007
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            William,

            I have been "telepresent" on several teams for the past few years. I am
            mostly coding these days, so I pair remotely as much as 15 hours a week. I
            find Skype works pretty well, although the etiquette we've developed calls
            for asking permission before making visual contact. It was a big step
            forward when I got a second full-sized screen so I could have big pictures
            of people and a full-screen copy of their screen at the same time.

            I agree with Phlip that VNC is too slow even with big, fast pipes. I think
            the problem is latency, not throughput. I'd like to experiment with
            alternative places to put the wire (for example, a telepresent editor) that
            spent bandwidth if necessary to reduce the number of turnarounds.

            Overall, it's not nearly as good as being there but it's a whole lot better
            than not being connected. The big ticket telepresence rooms would sure be
            fun to try, though.

            Regards,

            Kent Beck
            Three Rivers Institute

            _____

            From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Pietri
            Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 8:36 AM
            To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [XP] Telepresence with XP teams?




            Has anybody done much with telepresence and XP teams? Like others, I've
            struggled for years with clients who want options other than having
            everybody in one room. I've been hearing rumblings about telepresence
            for a while, but Bob Cringely is the first writer I trust who thinks
            they live up to a lot of the hype:

            http://www.pbs
            <http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2007/pulpit_20070831_002850.html>
            org/cringely/pulpit/2007/pulpit_20070831_002850.html

            Naturally, spending $350k plus $18k monthly per room is not an option
            for most of us. But I'm wondering:

            a) Has anybody had a chance to use this tech in a software development
            context?

            b) Have people tried cheaper always-on screens in their team rooms to
            connect remote people?

            It seems to me that one of the big problems with remote participants and
            XP is that one has to consciously act to pull them in to a
            conversation. I'm wondering if even a cheap telepresence rig would help
            chip away at that.

            Curiously,

            William

            --
            William Pietri - william@scissor. <mailto:william%40scissor.com> com -
            +1-415-643-1024
            Agile consulting, coaching, and development: http://www.scissor
            <http://www.scissor.com/> com/
            Can you see the future? Prove it at http://www.longbets
            <http://www.longbets.org/> .org/





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dave Nicolette
            I ve sometimes wondered (idly) whether something like Second Life would make a good team room for a distributed agile team, especially if the avatars could
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 5, 2007
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              I've sometimes wondered (idly) whether something like Second Life
              would make a good team room for a distributed agile team, especially
              if the avatars could express emotion non-verbally.

              Dave


              --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kent Beck" <kent@...> wrote:
              >
              > William,
              >
              > I have been "telepresent" on several teams for the past few years. I am
              > mostly coding these days, so I pair remotely as much as 15 hours a
              week. I
              > find Skype works pretty well, although the etiquette we've developed
              calls
              > for asking permission before making visual contact. It was a big step
              > forward when I got a second full-sized screen so I could have big
              pictures
              > of people and a full-screen copy of their screen at the same time.
              >
              > I agree with Phlip that VNC is too slow even with big, fast pipes. I
              think
              > the problem is latency, not throughput. I'd like to experiment with
              > alternative places to put the wire (for example, a telepresent
              editor) that
              > spent bandwidth if necessary to reduce the number of turnarounds.
              >
              > Overall, it's not nearly as good as being there but it's a whole lot
              better
              > than not being connected. The big ticket telepresence rooms would
              sure be
              > fun to try, though.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Kent Beck
              > Three Rivers Institute
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Pietri
              > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 8:36 AM
              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [XP] Telepresence with XP teams?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Has anybody done much with telepresence and XP teams? Like others, I've
              > struggled for years with clients who want options other than having
              > everybody in one room. I've been hearing rumblings about telepresence
              > for a while, but Bob Cringely is the first writer I trust who thinks
              > they live up to a lot of the hype:
              >
              > http://www.pbs
              > <http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2007/pulpit_20070831_002850.html>
              > org/cringely/pulpit/2007/pulpit_20070831_002850.html
              >
              > Naturally, spending $350k plus $18k monthly per room is not an option
              > for most of us. But I'm wondering:
              >
              > a) Has anybody had a chance to use this tech in a software development
              > context?
              >
              > b) Have people tried cheaper always-on screens in their team rooms to
              > connect remote people?
              >
              > It seems to me that one of the big problems with remote participants
              and
              > XP is that one has to consciously act to pull them in to a
              > conversation. I'm wondering if even a cheap telepresence rig would help
              > chip away at that.
              >
              > Curiously,
              >
              > William
              >
              > --
              > William Pietri - william@scissor. <mailto:william%40scissor.com> com -
              > +1-415-643-1024
              > Agile consulting, coaching, and development: http://www.scissor
              > <http://www.scissor.com/> com/
              > Can you see the future? Prove it at http://www.longbets
              > <http://www.longbets.org/> .org/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Shane Mingins
              ... For your remote pairing what are you using to do that (aside from skype)? I briefly tried the collaboration plugin provided in NetBeans but that was quite
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 5, 2007
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                On 9/6/07, Kent Beck <kent@...> wrote:
                > I have been "telepresent" on several teams for the past few years. I am
                > mostly coding these days, so I pair remotely as much as 15 hours a week. I
                > find Skype works pretty well, although the etiquette we've developed calls
                > for asking permission before making visual contact. It was a big step
                > forward when I got a second full-sized screen so I could have big pictures
                > of people and a full-screen copy of their screen at the same time.
                >


                For your remote pairing what are you using to do that (aside from skype)?

                I briefly tried the collaboration plugin provided in NetBeans but that
                was quite slow. Have tried a few more sessions with Coda (on a Mac)
                but then that has limitations ... like showing the tests run is not an
                option. Other developers have been using screen and vi ... but they
                are braver than me ;-)

                Cheers
                Shane
              • Ron Jeffries
                Hello, Dave. On Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 4:50:10 PM, you ... I ve been using Second Life a bit and while it is quite interesting, I m not sure how
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 6, 2007
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                  Hello, Dave. On Wednesday, September 5, 2007, at 4:50:10 PM, you
                  wrote:

                  > I've sometimes wondered (idly) whether something like Second Life
                  > would make a good team room for a distributed agile team, especially
                  > if the avatars could express emotion non-verbally.

                  I've been using Second Life a bit and while it is quite interesting,
                  I'm not sure how well it would work for something like this. Worth a
                  try perhaps.

                  Could use a testing framework for Linden Scripting Language too ...

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                  Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
                • Kent Beck
                  Shane, I think I ve used all the free products for screen sharing. VNC works best for me, but it s still too slow to be comfortable. I ve had better
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 7, 2007
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                    Shane,

                    I think I've used all the free products for screen sharing. VNC works best
                    for me, but it's still too slow to be comfortable. I've had better
                    experiences with NetOp, a commercial product out of Denmark.

                    Developing an effective shared environment would require careful attention
                    to the number of network turnarounds. My roundtrip time is often around 200
                    ms, so you don't get many messages before the delay becomes distracting. My
                    gut tells me that a peer-to-peer architecture would be best (not the
                    master/slave of screen sharing), perhaps with some speculative processing to
                    provide the illusion of shared responsiveness.

                    The first thing I'd do is write a test fixture that counted network
                    messages, and specify a maximum number of messages for each acceptance test.

                    Scale is a problem--there is a lot of functionality, much of it useful, in
                    an editor like Eclipse's. OTOH, a simple editor might be good enough to
                    start. Now if I could just get funding...

                    Regards,

                    Kent

                    _____

                    From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shane Mingins
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 3:57 PM
                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [XP] Telepresence with XP teams?



                    On 9/6/07, Kent Beck <kent@threeriversins
                    <mailto:kent%40threeriversinstitute.org> titute.org> wrote:
                    > I have been "telepresent" on several teams for the past few years. I am
                    > mostly coding these days, so I pair remotely as much as 15 hours a week. I
                    > find Skype works pretty well, although the etiquette we've developed calls
                    > for asking permission before making visual contact. It was a big step
                    > forward when I got a second full-sized screen so I could have big pictures
                    > of people and a full-screen copy of their screen at the same time.
                    >

                    For your remote pairing what are you using to do that (aside from skype)?

                    I briefly tried the collaboration plugin provided in NetBeans but that
                    was quite slow. Have tried a few more sessions with Coda (on a Mac)
                    but then that has limitations ... like showing the tests run is not an
                    option. Other developers have been using screen and vi ... but they
                    are braver than me ;-)

                    Cheers
                    Shane





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • J. B. Rainsberger
                    ... I have recently added a 50-inch plasma external monitor. Kent s face on that screen while pairing would be interesting. Ron s I m not sure I could handle.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 8, 2007
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                      Kent Beck wrote:

                      > I have been "telepresent" on several teams for the past few years. I am
                      > mostly coding these days, so I pair remotely as much as 15 hours a week. I
                      > find Skype works pretty well, although the etiquette we've developed calls
                      > for asking permission before making visual contact. It was a big step
                      > forward when I got a second full-sized screen so I could have big pictures
                      > of people and a full-screen copy of their screen at the same time.

                      I have recently added a 50-inch plasma external monitor. Kent's face on
                      that screen while pairing would be interesting. Ron's I'm not sure I
                      could handle.
                      --
                      J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: http://www.jbrains.ca
                      Your guide to software craftsmanship
                      JUnit Recipes: Practical Methods for Programmer Testing
                      2005 Gordon Pask Award for contribution Agile Software Practice
                    • Cory Foy
                      ... That s what I love about going to the Agile conference. It reminds me which of you I could actually stand to look at on a daily basis (J.B., guess which
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 9, 2007
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                        J. B. Rainsberger wrote:
                        > I have recently added a 50-inch plasma external monitor. Kent's face on
                        > that screen while pairing would be interesting. Ron's I'm not sure I
                        > could handle.

                        That's what I love about going to the Agile conference. It reminds me
                        which of you I could actually stand to look at on a daily basis (J.B.,
                        guess which group you're in?) ;)

                        --
                        Cory Foy
                        http://www.cornetdesign.com
                      • Shane Mingins
                        On Sat, Sep 8, 2007 at 12:44 PM, Kent Beck ... Just a quick question .... what specific NetOp product are you using? Cheers Shane
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 26, 2009
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                          On Sat, Sep 8, 2007 at 12:44 PM, Kent Beck
                          <kent@...> wrote:
                          > I think I've used all the free products for screen sharing. VNC works best
                          > for me, but it's still too slow to be comfortable. I've had better
                          > experiences with NetOp, a commercial product out of Denmark.
                          >

                          Just a quick question .... what specific NetOp product are you using?

                          Cheers
                          Shane
                        • kentb
                          Shane, We are using NetOp Remote Control. I find it faster and more stable than VNC. Cheers, Kent _____ From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 26, 2009
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                            Shane,

                            We are using NetOp Remote Control. I find it faster and more stable than
                            VNC.

                            Cheers,

                            Kent

                            _____

                            From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shane Mingins
                            Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 1:03 PM
                            To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [XP] Telepresence with XP teams?



                            On Sat, Sep 8, 2007 at 12:44 PM, Kent Beck
                            <kent@threeriversins <mailto:kent%40threeriversinstitute.org> titute.org>
                            wrote:
                            > I think I've used all the free products for screen sharing. VNC works best
                            > for me, but it's still too slow to be comfortable. I've had better
                            > experiences with NetOp, a commercial product out of Denmark.
                            >

                            Just a quick question .... what specific NetOp product are you using?

                            Cheers
                            Shane





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Chet Hendrickson
                            Hello kent, Can you give us a feel for the magnitude of the difference? ... -- Best regards, Chet mailto:lists@hendricksonxp.com
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 26, 2009
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                              Hello kent,

                              Can you give us a feel for the magnitude of the difference?

                              Monday, January 26, 2009, 6:31:59 PM, you wrote:

                              > Shane,
                              >
                              > We are using NetOp Remote Control. I find it faster and more stable than
                              > VNC.
                              >
                              > Cheers,
                              >
                              > Kent

                              > _____

                              > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shane Mingins
                              > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 1:03 PM
                              > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [XP] Telepresence with XP teams?



                              > On Sat, Sep 8, 2007 at 12:44 PM, Kent Beck
                              > <kent@threeriversins <mailto:kent%40threeriversinstitute.org> titute.org>
                              > wrote:
                              >> I think I've used all the free products for screen sharing. VNC works best
                              >> for me, but it's still too slow to be comfortable. I've had better
                              >> experiences with NetOp, a commercial product out of Denmark.
                              >>

                              > Just a quick question .... what specific NetOp product are you using?

                              > Cheers
                              > Shane


                              >


                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              --
                              Best regards,
                              Chet mailto:lists@...
                            • kentb
                              The biggest difference is stability. NetOp never loses connections. VNC does frequently. Losing the connection always interrupts any momentum we had going in
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 26, 2009
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                                The biggest difference is stability. NetOp never loses connections. VNC does
                                frequently. Losing the connection always interrupts any momentum we had
                                going in the session. The performance is noticeably better, but still far
                                from where it needs to be for a smooth experience. For a comfortable
                                co-editing experience you need local editing with merging.

                                Cheers,

                                Kent Beck
                                Three Rivers Institute
                                Author of JUnit Max

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chet Hendrickson
                                Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 3:41 PM
                                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [good] RE: [XP] Telepresence with XP teams?

                                Hello kent,

                                Can you give us a feel for the magnitude of the difference?

                                Monday, January 26, 2009, 6:31:59 PM, you wrote:

                                > Shane,
                                >
                                > We are using NetOp Remote Control. I find it faster and more stable
                                > than VNC.
                                >
                                > Cheers,
                                >
                                > Kent

                                > _____

                                > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shane Mingins
                                > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 1:03 PM
                                > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [XP] Telepresence with XP teams?



                                > On Sat, Sep 8, 2007 at 12:44 PM, Kent Beck <kent@threeriversins
                                > <mailto:kent%40threeriversinstitute.org> titute.org>
                                > wrote:
                                >> I think I've used all the free products for screen sharing. VNC works
                                >> best for me, but it's still too slow to be comfortable. I've had
                                >> better experiences with NetOp, a commercial product out of Denmark.
                                >>

                                > Just a quick question .... what specific NetOp product are you using?

                                > Cheers
                                > Shane


                                >


                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                --
                                Best regards,
                                Chet mailto:lists@...


                                ------------------------------------

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                              • Larry Brunelle
                                ... VNC does ... To Whom This Helps: I ve had VERY good service from NoMachine s free NX product in running a workstation remotely - over a 3Mbit DSL
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 26, 2009
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                                  kentb wrote:
                                  > The biggest difference is stability. NetOp never loses connections.
                                  VNC does
                                  > frequently. Losing the connection always interrupts any momentum we had
                                  > going in the session. The performance is noticeably better, but still far
                                  > from where it needs to be for a smooth experience. For a comfortable
                                  > co-editing experience you need local editing with merging.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  >
                                  > Kent Beck
                                  > Three Rivers Institute
                                  > Author of JUnit Max
                                  >

                                  To Whom This Helps:

                                  I've had VERY good service from NoMachine's free NX
                                  product in running a workstation remotely - over a
                                  3Mbit DSL connection, the screen response was close
                                  to native. Indistinguishable unless you're paying
                                  close attention just to that. The connect/disconnect
                                  of a running session is very similar to VNC's, but
                                  the performance seems to be about an order of magnitude
                                  better. (Gamers may be disappointed.)

                                  The free product is also supposed to provide up to
                                  2 displays of a session simultaneously. I did not
                                  accomplish that behavior with it, but then I didn't need
                                  it. It may have been my configuration. Multiple session
                                  instances (like VNC on different ports) are possible.

                                  The product server-side is available for Linux and
                                  Sun SPARC. Servers are expected for Mac OSX and
                                  Windows. Clients are presently available for all
                                  4 of these platforms. I have used the Linux product
                                  for both server and client extensively, and briefly
                                  tested the Windows client against the same server.

                                  The product also runs on VMware VMs, and in another
                                  test, I found it provided a better remote display of
                                  a Fedora 9 VM (KDE) than the VMware tools for Linux
                                  did in the VM window.

                                  http://www.nomachine.com/download.php
                                • Carfield Yim
                                  Would you share how does this product compare to window remote connect, mstsc?
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 27, 2009
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                                    Would you share how does this product compare to window remote connect, mstsc?

                                    On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 7:31 AM, kentb <kentb@...> wrote:
                                    > Shane,
                                    >
                                    > We are using NetOp Remote Control. I find it faster and more stable than
                                    > VNC.
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    >
                                    > Kent
                                    >
                                    > _____
                                    >
                                    > From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shane Mingins
                                    > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 1:03 PM
                                    > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [XP] Telepresence with XP teams?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Sat, Sep 8, 2007 at 12:44 PM, Kent Beck
                                    > <kent@threeriversins <mailto:kent%40threeriversinstitute.org> titute.org>
                                    > wrote:
                                    >> I think I've used all the free products for screen sharing. VNC works best
                                    >> for me, but it's still too slow to be comfortable. I've had better
                                    >> experiences with NetOp, a commercial product out of Denmark.
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    > Just a quick question .... what specific NetOp product are you using?
                                    >
                                    > Cheers
                                    > Shane
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                    >
                                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                    >
                                    > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • kentb
                                    Sorry, that s one I haven t used. Kent _____ From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carfield Yim
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 27, 2009
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                                      Sorry, that's one I haven't used.

                                      Kent

                                      _____

                                      From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carfield Yim
                                      Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:05 AM
                                      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [XP] Telepresence with XP teams?



                                      Would you share how does this product compare to window remote connect,
                                      mstsc?

                                      On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 7:31 AM, kentb <kentb@earthlink.
                                      <mailto:kentb%40earthlink.net> net> wrote:
                                      > Shane,
                                      >
                                      > We are using NetOp Remote Control. I find it faster and more stable than
                                      > VNC.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers,
                                      >
                                      > Kent
                                      >
                                      > _____
                                      >
                                      > From: extremeprogramming@ <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:extremeprogramming@ <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shane Mingins
                                      > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 1:03 PM
                                      > To: extremeprogramming@ <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [XP] Telepresence with XP teams?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Sat, Sep 8, 2007 at 12:44 PM, Kent Beck
                                      > <kent@threeriversins <mailto:kent%40threeriversinstitute.org> titute.org>
                                      > wrote:
                                      >> I think I've used all the free products for screen sharing. VNC works
                                      best
                                      >> for me, but it's still too slow to be comfortable. I've had better
                                      >> experiences with NetOp, a commercial product out of Denmark.
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > Just a quick question .... what specific NetOp product are you using?
                                      >
                                      > Cheers
                                      > Shane
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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