Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [XP] Agile Dojo

Expand Messages
  • Charlie Poole
    Hi Arnaud, Regarding the use of the phrase Agile Dojo, you wrote... ... This is an instance of something I have noticed among several groups, but perhaps more
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 2, 2007
      Hi Arnaud,

      Regarding the use of the phrase Agile Dojo, you wrote...

      > I understand there are a lot of positive things one can
      > associate with the term, and I understand that martial arts
      > practitioners do have a different point of view. Just to be
      > clear and to prevent misinterpretation, this is unrelated to
      > racial/cultural prejudices.

      This is an instance of something I have noticed among several
      groups, but perhaps more prominently among XP practitioners.

      1) Someone has a new insight based on an analogy between our
      work and some other field with which they are familiar.

      2) The insight and analogy is shared with other people who are
      also familiar with both fields

      3) Since it's all working so well, an attempt is made to
      exploit the analogy when talking to others who know little
      about the field from which it is drawn.

      Step three is the failure pattern for analogy. We see it
      when we try to reason about software development based on
      similarities to construction, theater, jazz bands and - yes -
      martial arts.

      So, I don't think this is a particular problem with Agile
      Dojo, just something that happens when we get too carried
      away with analogies.

      Charlie
    • Arnaud Bailly
      ... Thanks for sharing your experience. Sure, I forgot T ai Chi. And Capoeira too. I jumped in because I had arguments over this issue recently and I wanted to
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 2, 2007
        Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> writes:

        >
        > It could happen. ;->
        >
        > I am no expert in martial arts, but here is my report. My point
        > ...
        > defensive in nature. (Attacking an Aikido expert is not well
        > advised, nonetheless. She will graciously aid you in falling on your
        > head.)
        >

        Thanks for sharing your experience. Sure, I forgot T'ai Chi. And
        Capoeira too. I jumped in because I had arguments over this issue
        recently and I wanted to know whether this was something shared or
        not. Apparently it is not (a bit flawed as statistics goes, sure).

        > Now I don't feel strongly one way or another about the "Dojo"
        > designation, which I take to be roughly equivalent to "Gym" (in the
        > USA sense anyway), or "Classroom". What I do feel strongly about is
        > that there is value to having a place of learning, where we set our
        > minds to be open and to experience what is being offered.
        > When I'm faced with some culturally foreign situation, I try to drop my
        > automatic defenses and let the thing happen. Sometimes I succeed
        > with that, and usually everything turns out just fine.
        >

        Yes, I fully agree with that stand. The last "dojo" we had here was
        using PHP as language, and it turned out not too be very succesful as
        a programming experiment: We did not solved the problem, and our
        partial solution is neither elegant, nor satisfying. And I think our tests
        are flawed.

        But I and probably others too learned a lot, as we could
        see how the lack of familiarity with a particular tool hindered our
        effort to apply directly skills and practices gained with other
        tools. We also gained some hands-on experiment with the right
        granularity and starting steps of TDD. And I was really interested to
        try "forgotting" my Java mechanisms and adapt to PHP.

        That's why I am a strong proponent of collective programming practice,
        somewhat outside of what we do day-to-day at work. But words are not
        innocent as newborn babies, they induce mental state and particular
        relationships rooted in their experience between all those
        participating in their usages.

        > Regards,
        >
        > Ron Jeffries
        > www.XProgramming.com
        > If another does not intend offense, it is wrong for me to seek it;
        > if another does indeed intend offense, it is foolish for me to permit it.

        They are definitely not random...

        Regards
        --
        OQube < software engineering \ génie logiciel >
        Arnaud Bailly, Dr.
        \web> http://www.oqube.com
      • Robert Biddle
        ... I read Ron s message and have a similar story to report. My marital art was called Salsa , and we practiced in a place called a Studio . We met the same
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 2, 2007
          Ron Jeffries wrote:

          > I am no expert in martial arts, but here is my report. My point
          > isn't to change your mind, which I expect not to be possible, but to
          > offer a different viewpoint. My martial art is T'ai Chi,
          > ...

          I read Ron's message and have a similar story to report. My marital
          art was called "Salsa", and we practiced in a place called a
          "Studio". We met the same time every week, and our teacher helped us
          learn new skills and practice them. We also began with a ritual,
          whereby we all admired each others clothes and fitness.

          The teacher worked with us to find which techniques we wanted to
          learn, and then would organise them into smaller stories which we
          would practice with each other until they were acceptable, and then
          next week we would negotiate new stories, I mean moves.

          As is particularly relevant to the analogy with learning agile
          development, we used pairing as a way to learn, mentor and be
          mentored, and prepare for using the techniques in public. We even
          practiced promiscuous pairing. It was really great to be in a trusting
          environment where we were encouraged to look closely at other people
          as they practiced their techniques. I especially learned a lot from
          the people who were most different to me, because they moved in
          unexpected and exciting ways.

          So I agree with Ron that this was an excellent way to learn. Many of
          us met at organisations were we were encouraged to practice our
          techniques. Some later established partnerships based on this marital
          art. A friend of mine even became a coach and opened her own dojo, I
          mean studio. She gave it a cool Latin name: Mutatis-Mutandis.

          :-)
          Cheers
          Robt
        • Arnaud Bailly
          ... Mine is called Tango and the location name in use is a Practice . :-) ... ^^^^^^^ Interesting semantic collision ;-) So according to your/our examples,
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 2, 2007
            Robert Biddle <Robert_Biddle@...> writes:

            > Ron Jeffries wrote:
            >
            > > I am no expert in martial arts, but here is my report. My point
            > > isn't to change your mind, which I expect not to be possible, but to
            > > offer a different viewpoint. My martial art is T'ai Chi,
            > > ...
            >
            > I read Ron's message and have a similar story to report. My marital
            > art was called "Salsa", and we practiced in a place called a
            > "Studio". We met the same time every week, and our teacher helped us
            > learn new skills and practice them. We also began with a ritual,
            > whereby we all admired each others clothes and fitness.
            >

            Mine is called "Tango" and the location name in use is a "Practice". :-)

            >
            > So I agree with Ron that this was an excellent way to learn. Many of
            > us met at organisations were we were encouraged to practice our
            > techniques. Some later established partnerships based on this marital
            ^^^^^^^
            Interesting semantic collision ;-)

            So according to your/our examples, here is what defines a dojo:
            1. a teacher, someone that can teach me new skills, correct me if I'm
            wrong
            2. a place, where I can practice those newly taught skills and
            congregate with ...
            3. people, like me, from which I can also learn and with which I can
            interact, with ...
            4. good will and respect.

            Regards,
            --
            OQube < software engineering \ génie logiciel >
            Arnaud Bailly, Dr.
            \web> http://www.oqube.com
          • Chris Wheeler
            ... .... techniques. Some later established partnerships based on this marital ... Then it truly was a marital art, no? ... Chris. [Non-text portions of this
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 2, 2007
              On 8/2/07, Robert Biddle <Robert_Biddle@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I read Ron's message and have a similar story to report. My marital
              > art was called "Salsa", and we practiced in a place called a

              ....

              techniques. Some later established partnerships based on this marital
              > art. A friend of mine even became a coach and opened her own dojo, I


              Then it truly was a 'marital' art, no?

              :)

              Chris.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Charlie Poole
              Hi Ron, ... Nicely put. I have that goal for myself as well, and sometimes I even achieve it. OTOH, if I m trying to communicate and my choice of language
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 2, 2007
                Hi Ron,

                > Now I don't feel strongly one way or another about the "Dojo"
                > designation, which I take to be roughly equivalent to "Gym"
                > (in the USA sense anyway), or "Classroom". What I do feel
                > strongly about is that there is value to having a place of
                > learning, where we set our minds to be open and to experience
                > what is being offered. When I'm faced with some culturally
                > foreign situation, I try to drop my automatic defenses and
                > let the thing happen. Sometimes I succeed with that, and
                > usually everything turns out just fine.

                Nicely put. I have that goal for myself as well, and sometimes
                I even achieve it. OTOH, if I'm trying to communicate and my
                choice of language fails to connect with other folks, I find
                it's usually more useful for me to adapt my language rather
                than trying to stretch their level of acceptance. Of course,
                the latter would be more convenient for me... if it worked...

                I think it's good for programs and people to be generous in the
                variations of input they will accept while putting fewer demands
                on the generosity of those who must process their output.

                Charlie

                Charlie

                > Regards,
                >
                > Ron Jeffries
                > www.XProgramming.com
                > If another does not intend offense, it is wrong for me to
                > seek it; if another does indeed intend offense, it is foolish
                > for me to permit it.
                > -- Kelly Easterley
                >
                >
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                >
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                >
                > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Michael Spayd
                Hi All, Hey, this has become a really cool chain :-). Thanks so much for all your answers. I have only had time to thoroughly read the first few, then skimmed
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 2, 2007
                  Hi All,

                  Hey, this has become a really cool chain :-). Thanks so much for all your
                  answers. I have only had time to thoroughly read the first few, then skimmed
                  the rest (sorry for being a bad thread host).

                  This is very valuable to me and I will comb it for more juice later. For
                  now, I am grateful for your help.

                  I will have further questions or kudos when I get a change to digest it
                  (probably next week)

                  Bonne Weekende, toute le monde,

                  Michael


                  On 8/2/07, Arnaud Bailly <abailly@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Robert Biddle <Robert_Biddle@... <Robert_Biddle%40Carleton.Ca>>
                  > writes:
                  >
                  > > Ron Jeffries wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > I am no expert in martial arts, but here is my report. My point
                  > > > isn't to change your mind, which I expect not to be possible, but to
                  > > > offer a different viewpoint. My martial art is T'ai Chi,
                  > > > ...
                  > >
                  > > I read Ron's message and have a similar story to report. My marital
                  > > art was called "Salsa", and we practiced in a place called a
                  > > "Studio". We met the same time every week, and our teacher helped us
                  > > learn new skills and practice them. We also began with a ritual,
                  > > whereby we all admired each others clothes and fitness.
                  > >
                  >
                  > Mine is called "Tango" and the location name in use is a "Practice". :-)
                  >
                  > >
                  > > So I agree with Ron that this was an excellent way to learn. Many of
                  > > us met at organisations were we were encouraged to practice our
                  > > techniques. Some later established partnerships based on this marital
                  > ^^^^^^^
                  > Interesting semantic collision ;-)
                  >
                  > So according to your/our examples, here is what defines a dojo:
                  > 1. a teacher, someone that can teach me new skills, correct me if I'm
                  > wrong
                  > 2. a place, where I can practice those newly taught skills and
                  > congregate with ...
                  > 3. people, like me, from which I can also learn and with which I can
                  > interact, with ...
                  > 4. good will and respect.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > --
                  > OQube < software engineering \ génie logiciel >
                  > Arnaud Bailly, Dr.
                  > \web> http://www.oqube.com
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  Michael K. Spayd
                  Cogility Consulting Solutions, LLC
                  "Business Mind, Social Heart"
                  michael.spayd@...
                  720.300.5286

                  "Leading Agile Enterprise Transformations"


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.