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Re: [XP] Blog post for discussion

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  • Tim Ottinger
    Ah, I don t know. I have about 14 IDEs on my linux laptop. Many of them for python, a few cross-language, two for Java. I think that it may be hard for some
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 1, 2007
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      Ah, I don't know. I have about 14 IDEs on my linux laptop. Many of them for python,
      a few cross-language, two for Java.

      I think that it may be hard for some to leave their first girlfriend. I can understand how some people first learn Java or C or Modula and can't think about other languages objectively -- they identify the rush of programming with the tools and languages that let them do it. I don' think it's imprinting, just identifying. If you are a good C++ programmer, it may take a while for you to realize that you're a good *programmer* and that some languages (most!) are more fun and productive than C++.

      I think people make a false big deal out of it. It's not the language or the ide, but they don't know that. Leaving the familiar for the unfamiliar is sometimes rough. Remember the first time you joined an XP project after years of (more or less) personal success in waterfall? Or when you switched editors the first time? Or, if you have done it, when you changed careers?

      Tim

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Adrian Mowat <mowat27@...>
      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com; scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 6:10:43 AM
      Subject: [XP] Blog post for discussion

      Hi all,

      I just read this article on a blog I subscribe to and I think it might
      interest this group...

      http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000921.html

      In summary, if has been found that animals "imprint on the first creature
      they see shortly after birth" and the author of the post argues that
      developers have a similar reaction to trying new tools. The example used is
      that we might be reluctant to try a new IDE because we are used to the one
      we have always used and are still trying to maximise our productivity using
      it.

      I believe we often see a similar effect when trying to get an organisation
      to try new Agile ideas - no matter how hard we work to explain the benefits.

      Thoughts?

      Cheers

      Adrian


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    • Cory Foy
      ... How many people who use Windows switched their start menu to Classic mode as soon as they got XP? I don t think that s because of impression, I think
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 1, 2007
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        > In summary, if has been found that animals "imprint on the first creature
        > they see shortly after birth" and the author of the post argues that
        > developers have a similar reaction to trying new tools. The example used is
        > that we might be reluctant to try a new IDE because we are used to the one
        > we have always used and are still trying to maximise our productivity using
        > it.

        How many people who use Windows switched their start menu to "Classic"
        mode as soon as they got XP? I don't think that's because of impression,
        I think it's because making usable UIs is difficult, and once people are
        used to them, they don't want to have to invest the time to have to
        learn a new paradigm.

        Another example is that, in the new Office, they use this ribbon bar
        concept. I still can't figure out how to do half the stuff I used to do,
        but I've talked to people who say they've found features they never knew
        was there.

        Changing IDEs for a new language usually is a lot easier then changing
        IDEs for the same language. That's not as much of a problem in the .NET
        world, but in Java you have choices, and people get used to them.

        > I believe we often see a similar effect when trying to get an organisation
        > to try new Agile ideas - no matter how hard we work to explain the benefits.

        And I think that dovetails to my last sentence. People have difficulty
        adapting to new ways of doing things they are already doing. But taking
        a new project and adapting XP, or a new IDE, or a new language, provides
        that natural break point to let people explore a little more.

        --
        Cory Foy
        http://www.cornetdesign.com
      • Tim Ottinger
        Good example. A lot of people get Windows with their first computer, and never learn a second operating system. I ve noticed that people who had trouble
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 1, 2007
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          Good example. A lot of people get Windows with their first computer, and never learn a second operating system. I've noticed that people who had trouble acclimating to computers with windows fear that it will be just as hard to switch to Mac or Linux or whatever, because they don't realize that they've learned to use GUIs already, and they've learned to use computers already, and that's separate from the investment in windows. I found switching to be mostly trivial, and mostly beneficial, and not so hard. OTOH, my first OS was TRS-80, third was CP/M and Windows was fifth or sixth.

          But when we think about people not switching IDEs or languages, consider the tenacity with which people cling to their Windows, and the foolishness therein.


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Cory Foy <usergroup@...>
          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 8:30:10 AM
          Subject: Re: [XP] Blog post for discussion

          > In summary, if has been found that animals "imprint on the first creature
          > they see shortly after birth" and the author of the post argues that
          > developers have a similar reaction to trying new tools. The example used is
          > that we might be reluctant to try a new IDE because we are used to the one
          > we have always used and are still trying to maximise our productivity using
          > it.

          How many people who use Windows switched their start menu to "Classic"
          mode as soon as they got XP? I don't think that's because of impression,
          I think it's because making usable UIs is difficult, and once people are
          used to them, they don't want to have to invest the time to have to
          learn a new paradigm.

          Another example is that, in the new Office, they use this ribbon bar
          concept. I still can't figure out how to do half the stuff I used to do,
          but I've talked to people who say they've found features they never knew
          was there.

          Changing IDEs for a new language usually is a lot easier then changing
          IDEs for the same language. That's not as much of a problem in the .NET
          world, but in Java you have choices, and people get used to them.

          > I believe we often see a similar effect when trying to get an organisation
          > to try new Agile ideas - no matter how hard we work to explain the benefits.

          And I think that dovetails to my last sentence. People have difficulty
          adapting to new ways of doing things they are already doing. But taking
          a new project and adapting XP, or a new IDE, or a new language, provides
          that natural break point to let people explore a little more.

          --
          Cory Foy
          http://www.cornetdesign.com



          To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...

          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...

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        • Adrian Mowat
          I find there are two groups of people. Those who think in terms of capability and those who think in terms of actions. People who think about capability
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 1, 2007
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            I find there are two groups of people. Those who think in terms of
            capability and those who think in terms of actions.

            People who think about capability understand that an application *ought* to
            be able to perform a given function and spend their time trying to figure
            out how to do it. People who thing in terms of actions are driven by those
            features of a program they know how to use and either fear to dig deeper or
            it does not occur to them to try.

            Those who think in terms of capabilities are much more able to adapt and
            learn new applications and techniques much more quickly.

            The same goes for trying to teach Agile and/or get existing teams to try new
            techniques. Some people can see there is potential to improve in the status
            quo and are keen to give it a try while others are happy doing things the
            way they always have and need quite a lot of persuading to change.

            Adrian


            On 01/08/07, Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> wrote:
            >
            > Good example. A lot of people get Windows with their first computer, and
            > never learn a second operating system. I've noticed that people who had
            > trouble acclimating to computers with windows fear that it will be just as
            > hard to switch to Mac or Linux or whatever, because they don't realize that
            > they've learned to use GUIs already, and they've learned to use computers
            > already, and that's separate from the investment in windows. I found
            > switching to be mostly trivial, and mostly beneficial, and not so hard.
            > OTOH, my first OS was TRS-80, third was CP/M and Windows was fifth or sixth.
            >
            > But when we think about people not switching IDEs or languages, consider
            > the tenacity with which people cling to their Windows, and the foolishness
            > therein.
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Cory Foy <usergroup@... <usergroup%40cornetdesign.com>>
            > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com<extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 8:30:10 AM
            > Subject: Re: [XP] Blog post for discussion
            >
            > > In summary, if has been found that animals "imprint on the first
            > creature
            > > they see shortly after birth" and the author of the post argues that
            > > developers have a similar reaction to trying new tools. The example used
            > is
            > > that we might be reluctant to try a new IDE because we are used to the
            > one
            > > we have always used and are still trying to maximise our productivity
            > using
            > > it.
            >
            > How many people who use Windows switched their start menu to "Classic"
            > mode as soon as they got XP? I don't think that's because of impression,
            > I think it's because making usable UIs is difficult, and once people are
            > used to them, they don't want to have to invest the time to have to
            > learn a new paradigm.
            >
            > Another example is that, in the new Office, they use this ribbon bar
            > concept. I still can't figure out how to do half the stuff I used to do,
            > but I've talked to people who say they've found features they never knew
            > was there.
            >
            > Changing IDEs for a new language usually is a lot easier then changing
            > IDEs for the same language. That's not as much of a problem in the .NET
            > world, but in Java you have choices, and people get used to them.
            >
            > > I believe we often see a similar effect when trying to get an
            > organisation
            > > to try new Agile ideas - no matter how hard we work to explain the
            > benefits.
            >
            > And I think that dovetails to my last sentence. People have difficulty
            > adapting to new ways of doing things they are already doing. But taking
            > a new project and adapting XP, or a new IDE, or a new language, provides
            > that natural break point to let people explore a little more.
            >
            > --
            > Cory Foy
            > http://www.cornetdesign.com
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...<extremeprogramming%40eGroups.com>
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...<extremeprogramming-unsubscribe%40eGroups.com>
            >
            > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > __________________________________________________________Ready for the
            > edge of your seat?
            > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
            > http://tv.yahoo.com/
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Carlton
            ... Nah, C++ is more fun than most languages - it has many more design choices than a normal language, so it gives you plenty to think about, and there s
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 1, 2007
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              On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 06:08:41 -0700 (PDT), Tim Ottinger <linux_tim@...> said:

              > If you are a good C++ programmer, it may take a while for you to
              > realize that you're a good *programmer* and that some languages
              > (most!) are more fun and productive than C++.

              Nah, C++ is more fun than most languages - it has many more design
              choices than a normal language, so it gives you plenty to think about,
              and there's usually an expressive way to accomplish what you want, so
              you can end up with pleasant code.

              David Carlton
              carlton@...
            • Tim Ottinger
              But the hard part is telling a grave from a groove. Sometimes you re in a groove, not a rut. ... From: George Dinwiddie To:
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 1, 2007
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                But the hard part is telling a grave from a groove. Sometimes you're in a groove, not a rut.

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: George Dinwiddie <lists@...>
                To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 7:41:31 PM
                Subject: Re: [XP] Blog post for discussion

                Yeah, the difference between a rut and a grave is the depth.









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