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open-source and agile followers

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  • aidy
    Hi, Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to open-source software have an agile background? aidy
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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      Hi,

      Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
      open-source software have an agile background?

      aidy
    • Ilja Preuss
      Hardly.
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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        Hardly.

        aidy wrote:
        > Hi,
        >
        > Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
        > open-source software have an agile background?
        >
        > aidy
        >
        >
        >
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      • Phlip
        ... Free Software predates Agility by a decade. However, the rigors of open source software development forced agility upon any successful project. To cut it,
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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          aidy wrote:

          > Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
          > open-source software have an agile background?

          Free Software predates Agility by a decade.

          However, the rigors of open source software development forced agility upon
          any successful project. To cut it, you need...

          - a system to verify each change
          - version controllers
          - a community of modifiers
          - a wider community of users
          - tiny iterations.

          Look at any successful project on its online repository - CPan, SourceForge,
          RAI, etc. - and you generally see a steady stream of small version ticks.
          Not the great risky leaps that corporate software endures.

          --
          Phlip
          http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596510657/
          "Test Driven Ajax (on Rails)"
          assert_xpath, assert_javascript, & assert_ajax
        • William Pietri
          ... I d also add that open-source projects, at least those that rise beyond the just-one-guy level, are generally communication-intensive, feedback-driven,
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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            Phlip wrote:
            > aidy wrote:
            >
            >
            >> Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
            >> open-source software have an agile background?
            >>
            >
            > Free Software predates Agility by a decade. [...]
            > Look at any successful project on its online repository - CPan, SourceForge,
            > RAI, etc. - and you generally see a steady stream of small version ticks.
            > Not the great risky leaps that corporate software endures.
            >

            I'd also add that open-source projects, at least those that rise beyond
            the just-one-guy level, are generally communication-intensive,
            feedback-driven, collaborative, have a shared set of code standards, and
            place a premium on readability of code. Those are all things that I see
            in good agile projects.

            William
          • James Carr
            Nope... in fact, a lot of the most popular open source applications (especially in the PHP and Perl space) are ridiculously hacked together with no thought to
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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              Nope... in fact, a lot of the most popular open source applications
              (especially in the PHP and Perl space) are ridiculously hacked together with
              no thought to TDD or any other of the agile principles.

              Thanks,
              James

              On 7/1/07, aidy <aidy.lewis@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
              > open-source software have an agile background?
              >
              > aidy
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Roth
              Open source projects are very communication intensive, as other posters have noted. They haven t been anywhere near as concerned with pervasive unit tests, and
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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                Open source projects are very communication
                intensive, as other posters have noted. They haven't
                been anywhere near as concerned with pervasive
                unit tests, and I'd venture to say that executable
                acceptance tests are almost unknown.

                Some of that is changing, especially the new,
                and very welcome, emphasis on unit tests
                in some circles.

                The flow of an open source project like Linux
                or Python is very different than an XP project,
                because you've got individuals scattered all over
                the world.

                John Roth


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "James Carr" <james.r.carr@...>
                To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 3:25 PM
                Subject: Re: [XP] open-source and agile followers


                > Nope... in fact, a lot of the most popular open source applications
                > (especially in the PHP and Perl space) are ridiculously hacked together
                > with
                > no thought to TDD or any other of the agile principles.
                >
                > Thanks,
                > James
                >
                > On 7/1/07, aidy <aidy.lewis@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Hi,
                >>
                >> Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
                >> open-source software have an agile background?
                >>
                >> aidy
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
              • J. B. Rainsberger
                ... Almost certainly not, but that s based on rough observation, and not real research. -- J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: http://www.jbrains.ca Your guide to
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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                  aidy wrote:

                  > Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
                  > open-source software have an agile background?

                  Almost certainly not, but that's based on rough observation, and not
                  real research.
                  --
                  J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: http://www.jbrains.ca
                  Your guide to software craftsmanship
                  JUnit Recipes: Practical Methods for Programmer Testing
                  2005 Gordon Pask Award for contribution Agile Software Practice
                • David Carlton
                  ... I think that there are many healthy open source projects without tiny iterations. Nightly builds, sure, but that s continuous integration, not true
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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                    On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 13:26:20 -0700, "Phlip" <phlip2005@...> said:

                    > However, the rigors of open source software development forced agility upon
                    > any successful project. To cut it, you need...

                    > - a system to verify each change
                    > - version controllers
                    > - a community of modifiers
                    > - a wider community of users
                    > - tiny iterations.

                    I think that there are many healthy open source projects without tiny
                    iterations. Nightly builds, sure, but that's continuous integration,
                    not true iterations. (The builds aren't formal releases, and
                    frequently aren't release quality.)

                    I mostly agree with the other points, though I'm not so confident
                    about the first one, and not sure quite what you mean by "version
                    controllers".

                    David Carlton
                    carlton@...
                  • David Carlton
                    ... GCC and GDB both have them, and the GNU coding standards mention make check . So in the open source circles I travel in, acceptance tests are common,
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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                      On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 16:16:52 -0600, John Roth <JohnRoth1@...> said:

                      > I'd venture to say that executable acceptance tests are almost
                      > unknown.

                      GCC and GDB both have them, and the GNU coding standards mention 'make
                      check'. So in the open source circles I travel in, acceptance tests
                      are common, unit tests much less so.

                      But there are a lot of circles to travel in in open source...

                      David Carlton
                      carlton@...
                    • Phlip
                      ... CVS or Subversion. They are so obvious we don t always list them... -- Phlip http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596510657/ Test Driven Ajax (on Rails)
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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                        David Carlton wrote:

                        >> - a system to verify each change
                        >> - version controllers
                        >> - a community of modifiers
                        >> - a wider community of users
                        >> - tiny iterations.
                        >
                        > I think that there are many healthy open source projects without tiny
                        > iterations. Nightly builds, sure, but that's continuous integration,
                        > not true iterations. (The builds aren't formal releases, and
                        > frequently aren't release quality.)
                        >
                        > I mostly agree with the other points, though I'm not so confident
                        > about the first one, and not sure quite what you mean by "version
                        > controllers".

                        CVS or Subversion.

                        They are so obvious we don't always list them...

                        --
                        Phlip
                        http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596510657/
                        "Test Driven Ajax (on Rails)"
                        assert_xpath, assert_javascript, & assert_ajax
                      • William Pietri
                        ... Although I think that s incorrect, it does occur to me that open-source programmers often make great additions to agile teams, as their habits and thinking
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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                          aidy wrote:
                          > Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
                          > open-source software have an agile background?
                          >

                          Although I think that's incorrect, it does occur to me that open-source
                          programmers often make great additions to agile teams, as their habits
                          and thinking integrate well.

                          William
                        • David Carlton
                          ... Gotcha. Yes, use of those is universal in open source projects. One of the weird things about reading Weinberg s _Quality Software Management_ is the
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 1, 2007
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                            On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 19:22:57 -0700, "Phlip" <phlip2005@...> said:
                            > David Carlton wrote:

                            >>> - version controllers

                            >> I mostly agree with the other points, though I'm not so confident
                            >> about the first one, and not sure quite what you mean by "version
                            >> controllers".

                            > CVS or Subversion.

                            > They are so obvious we don't always list them...

                            Gotcha. Yes, use of those is universal in open source projects.

                            One of the weird things about reading Weinberg's _Quality Software
                            Management_ is the amount of time he spends talking about situations
                            where a company can't even find the source code for a released piece
                            of software! Boggles the mind. But CVS itself, it would seem, was
                            first released a mere 17 years ago (though of course RCS and SCCS
                            antedate that), and that series came out in the nineties; I just have
                            to remember the context. And, to be sure, we still have problems of
                            people keeping long-lived non-checked-in code in their home
                            directories...

                            David Carlton
                            carlton@...
                          • Carfield Yim
                            I see a lot of opensource project without single unit test, not sure how do you think about that. Of course, a lot OSS project consist of a lot unit test
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 2, 2007
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                              I see a lot of opensource project without single unit test, not sure
                              how do you think about that.

                              Of course, a lot OSS project consist of a lot unit test


                              On 7/2/07, aidy <aidy.lewis@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi,
                              >
                              > Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
                              > open-source software have an agile background?
                              >
                              > aidy
                              >
                              >
                            • David H.
                              ... Ok, I ll bite. What has the absence of a unit test to do with their ability to develop software in a manner which follows agile principles. Arguably it
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                >
                                > I see a lot of opensource project without single unit test, not sure
                                > how do you think about that.
                                >
                                Ok, I'll bite. What has the absence of a unit test to do with their
                                ability to develop software in a manner which follows agile
                                principles. Arguably it will make their engineering a lot harder, but
                                surely it would not make it impossible for them to be following agile
                                principles.


                                --
                                Sent from gmail so do not trust this communication.
                                Do not send me sensitive information here, ask for my none-gmail accounts.

                                "Therefore the considerations of the intelligent always include both
                                benefit and harm." - Sun Tzu
                              • Ron Jeffries
                                ... The XP values are Communication, Simplicity, Feedback, Courage, and Respect. Programmer tests, it seems to me, support a number of these: Communication -
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                  Hello, David. On Monday, July 2, 2007, at 4:43:32 AM, you wrote:

                                  >> I see a lot of opensource project without single unit test, not sure
                                  >> how do you think about that.
                                  >>
                                  > Ok, I'll bite. What has the absence of a unit test to do with their
                                  > ability to develop software in a manner which follows agile
                                  > principles. Arguably it will make their engineering a lot harder, but
                                  > surely it would not make it impossible for them to be following agile
                                  > principles.

                                  The XP values are Communication, Simplicity, Feedback, Courage, and
                                  Respect. Programmer tests, it seems to me, support a number of
                                  these:

                                  Communication - Programmer tests communicate clearly and
                                  unequivocally what an object is to do,

                                  Simplicity - and are a really easy way to do it,

                                  Feedback - while providing instant information when things go
                                  wrong,

                                  Respect - providing object users the information they need when
                                  they need it.

                                  In addition, Beck's rules of simple design imply the tests:
                                  1. Runs all the tests;
                                  2. Contains no duplication;
                                  3. Exprsses all the idea;
                                  4. Minimizes code entities.

                                  Finally, XP and agile projects must evolve the design: there is no
                                  way not to and to still proceed incrementally. The tests are
                                  critical to the support of design improvements without inserting
                                  defects.

                                  So, while it might be possible to follow "agile principles" without
                                  such tests, it seems to me that it'd be pretty difficult.

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming.com
                                  Anyone can make the simple complicated.
                                  Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
                                • Tim Ottinger
                                  Absolutely not, sadly. Many of my own open source friends can t imagine it working in their situation. Requiring test before code would alienate a lot of
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                    Absolutely not, sadly. Many of my own open source friends can't imagine it working in their situation. Requiring test before code would alienate a lot of developers, pairing is generally very difficult when you have never had a face-to-face. No standups, etc. Open source contributors tend to be isolated and working whenever they can, not gathering together at specified times and places and working together. When there is a customer, it is because the developer is also a user of the software. They go by recommended fixes and changes, or do what they want, instead of planning games. Velocity isn't measured.



                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: aidy <aidy.lewis@...>
                                    To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2007 1:29:42 PM
                                    Subject: [XP] open-source and agile followers

                                    Hi,

                                    Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
                                    open-source software have an agile background?

                                    aidy



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                                  • Tim Ottinger
                                    You give too much credit to open source. A lot of it is not so readable. ... From: William Pietri To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                      You give too much credit to open source. A lot of it is not so readable.

                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: William Pietri <william@...>
                                      To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2007 3:55:34 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [XP] open-source and agile followers

                                      Phlip wrote:
                                      > aidy wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >> Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
                                      >> open-source software have an agile background?
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > Free Software predates Agility by a decade. [...]
                                      > Look at any successful project on its online repository - CPan, SourceForge,
                                      > RAI, etc. - and you generally see a steady stream of small version ticks.
                                      > Not the great risky leaps that corporate software endures.
                                      >

                                      I'd also add that open-source projects, at least those that rise beyond
                                      the just-one-guy level, are generally communication-intensive,
                                      feedback-driven, collaborative, have a shared set of code standards, and
                                      place a premium on readability of code. Those are all things that I see
                                      in good agile projects.

                                      William


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                                    • Phlip
                                      ... You say all that like it s a bad thing... -- Phlip
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                        Tim Ottinger wrote:

                                        > Absolutely not, sadly. Many of my own open source friends can't imagine it
                                        > working in their situation. Requiring test before code would alienate a lot
                                        > of developers, pairing is generally very difficult when you have never had a
                                        > face-to-face. No standups, etc. Open source contributors tend to be
                                        > isolated and working whenever they can, not gathering together at specified
                                        > times and places and working together. When there is a customer, it is
                                        > because the developer is also a user of the software. They go by
                                        > recommended fixes and changes, or do what they want, instead of planning
                                        > games. Velocity isn't measured.

                                        You say all that like it's a bad thing...

                                        --
                                        Phlip
                                      • William Pietri
                                        ... I think if you compare multi-person open-source projects with multi-person commercial projects, the open-source code is, on average, much better. I m not
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                          Tim Ottinger wrote:
                                          > You give too much credit to open source. A lot of it is not so readable.
                                          >

                                          I think if you compare multi-person open-source projects with
                                          multi-person commercial projects, the open-source code is, on average,
                                          much better.

                                          I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement. It's just that with
                                          commercial projects people will rely more on person-to-person
                                          communication. And, tacitly, I suspect they rely on the fact that people
                                          are relatively unlikely to quit their jobs just because the code is
                                          terrible.

                                          William
                                        • Tim Ottinger
                                          True, I did, and that was unjust. It s an amazing system and a tremendous value-generating machine. I would like to have my cake and eat it too. I got some
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                            True, I did, and that was unjust. It's an amazing system and a tremendous value-generating machine. I would like to have my cake and eat it too.

                                            I got some open source software and started unit testing it, and when I talked to the originators about mocking, he treated me like I was an idiot. Clearly I am stupid to want to run it without input files and configuration files, and what kind of idiot am I? Eventually, after the abuse, he got around to answering my question. It is sad that they don't understand the whole TDD thing, indeed, but it's amazing what they do without it.

                                            Tim

                                            ----- Original Message ----
                                            From: Phlip <phlip2005@...>
                                            To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, July 2, 2007 9:46:50 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [XP] open-source and agile followers

                                            Tim Ottinger wrote:

                                            > Absolutely not, sadly. Many of my own open source friends can't imagine it
                                            > working in their situation. Requiring test before code would alienate a lot
                                            > of developers, pairing is generally very difficult when you have never had a
                                            > face-to-face. No standups, etc. Open source contributors tend to be
                                            > isolated and working whenever they can, not gathering together at specified
                                            > times and places and working together. When there is a customer, it is
                                            > because the developer is also a user of the software. They go by
                                            > recommended fixes and changes, or do what they want, instead of planning
                                            > games. Velocity isn't measured.

                                            You say all that like it's a bad thing...

                                            --
                                            Phlip


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                                          • Phlip
                                            ... Thou shalt automate thy feedback. Note that many successful open source projects come with large reference implementations and flagship products. The
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jul 4, 2007
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                                              David H. wrote:

                                              > Ok, I'll bite. What has the absence of a unit test to do with their
                                              > ability to develop software in a manner which follows agile
                                              > principles. Arguably it will make their engineering a lot harder, but
                                              > surely it would not make it impossible for them to be following agile
                                              > principles.

                                              Thou shalt automate thy feedback.

                                              Note that many successful open source projects come with large reference
                                              implementations and flagship products. The project lieutenants apply patches
                                              to their bench versions, and debug these in the presence of the reference
                                              implementations. Then they submit what works. This system has many points in
                                              common with our

                                              Of course true unit tests would be so much better. They are one reason the
                                              post-Agile open source projects are kicking the butts of the old-school
                                              projects.

                                              --
                                              Phlip
                                              http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596510657/
                                              "Test Driven Ajax (on Rails)"
                                              assert_xpath, assert_javascript, & assert_ajax
                                            • Chris Wheeler
                                              ... Probably not. But, a lot of agile developers like using open source tools. Chris. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jul 4, 2007
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                                                On 7/1/07, aidy <aidy.lewis@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi,
                                                >
                                                > Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
                                                > open-source software have an agile background?
                                                >
                                                > aidy
                                                >

                                                Probably not. But, a lot of agile developers like using open source tools.

                                                Chris.


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Kelly Anderson
                                                ... Others have answered this no. I think they are correct, at least at the moment. The more interesting question for me is whether open source is compatible
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jul 5, 2007
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                                                  On 7/1/07, aidy <aidy.lewis@...> wrote:
                                                  > Hi,
                                                  >
                                                  > Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
                                                  > open-source software have an agile background?

                                                  Others have answered this no. I think they are correct, at least at the moment.

                                                  The more interesting question for me is whether open source is
                                                  compatible with Agile or XP?

                                                  The fact that you can't co-locate seems to me to be a critical issue.
                                                  I've heard of pairing over the network, and I suppose with the right
                                                  supporting tools, this would be doable. (BTW, I would REALLY like to
                                                  hear if anyone has found a really good tool that supports this.
                                                  Especially if it's an open source tool ;-)

                                                  TDD could clearly work in a distributed open-source environment. I've
                                                  done it, I know it works. It helps a lot.

                                                  Planning and iterations seem dicey, as does the concept of a
                                                  "customer". The fact that everyone is their own "customer" in the
                                                  typical open source project is exactly why open source is so good at
                                                  producing programming tools like NUnit, and so limited in producing
                                                  most other kinds of programs. (I know there are now good open source
                                                  browsers, I'm using one now, office products, but they were delivered
                                                  many years later than their closed source counterparts).

                                                  I think that there is a good way to work in open source that
                                                  incorporates more Agile and XP principles, but as long as open source
                                                  == distributed programming, I think it's going to require more
                                                  discipline than the average project. And it will have to have a
                                                  "Customer". One of the reasons Linux worked so well is that Linus
                                                  Torvalds filled the Customer roll so very well.

                                                  Nevertheless, I'm anxious to try to combine the concepts of open
                                                  source, TDD and as much Agile as I can manage in a real project. I
                                                  think it will be fun!

                                                  -Kelly
                                                • Jason Nocks
                                                  ... First issue: What process do you see developers who contribute to open-source software using? Is there one? Are there several? Are you interested in
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                                    On Sunday 01 July 2007 02:29:42 pm aidy wrote:
                                                    > Hi,
                                                    >
                                                    > Would I be correct in saying that most developers who contribute to
                                                    > open-source software have an agile background?
                                                    >
                                                    > aidy

                                                    First issue:
                                                    What process do you see "developers who contribute to open-source software"
                                                    using? Is there one? Are there several? Are you interested in discussing
                                                    whether or not the principles behind a particular process within the FOSS
                                                    (free / open-source software) community overlaps with Agile principles?

                                                    Next:
                                                    As another poster mentioned, the Free Software movement generally predates
                                                    Agile. So, I'd be curious, do most Agile-minded developers have an
                                                    open-source background? Most of the successful tools I'm familiar with in the
                                                    Agile community seem to have Open Source licenses. This is just an
                                                    observation (clouded by my own leanings), not based on any conclusive study.

                                                    Other thoughts?

                                                    --
                                                    Cheers,
                                                    Jason Nocks
                                                  • Jason Nocks
                                                    ... Arrogance is a human trait that Open Source contributors are not immune from. ... I get the impression from *they* don t understand the whole TDD thing ,
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                                      On Monday 02 July 2007 05:55:01 pm Tim Ottinger wrote:
                                                      > True, I did, and that was unjust. It's an amazing system and a tremendous
                                                      > value-generating machine. I would like to have my cake and eat it too.
                                                      >
                                                      > I got some open source software and started unit testing it, and when I
                                                      > talked to the originators about mocking, he treated me like I was an idiot.
                                                      > Clearly I am stupid to want to run it without input files and configuration
                                                      > files, and what kind of idiot am I? Eventually, after the abuse, he got

                                                      Arrogance is a human trait that Open Source contributors are not immune from.

                                                      > around to answering my question. It is sad that they don't understand the
                                                      > whole TDD thing, indeed, but it's amazing what they do without it.

                                                      I get the impression from "*they* don't understand the whole TDD thing", that
                                                      you think *nobody* in the FOSS (Free / Open Source Software) community is
                                                      doing TDD, or that TDD is beyond them. Have I misunderstood your post?

                                                      I often use the KDE project as a FOSS example. It just happens to be the one
                                                      I've studied the most. For anyone not familiar, KDE is the "K Desktop
                                                      Environment", one of the two full desktop environments on GNU/Linux that I'm
                                                      familiar with. It's a very large project that has been going on for quite
                                                      some time.

                                                      I googled "KDE unit test". I do not go to the European KDE conferences, but
                                                      was very pleased to see a recent TDD presentation by members of the KDE
                                                      community I've never met before:

                                                      http://akademy2007.kde.org/conference/talks/20.php

                                                      So, there's at least one FOSS project that the TDD infection seems to still be
                                                      spreading.

                                                      >
                                                      > Tim

                                                      --
                                                      Cheers,
                                                      Jason Nocks

                                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                                      > From: Phlip <phlip2005@...>
                                                      > To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Sent: Monday, July 2, 2007 9:46:50 AM
                                                      > Subject: Re: [XP] open-source and agile followers
                                                      >
                                                      > Tim Ottinger wrote:
                                                      > > Absolutely not, sadly. Many of my own open source friends can't imagine
                                                      > > it working in their situation. Requiring test before code would alienate
                                                      > > a lot of developers, pairing is generally very difficult when you have
                                                      > > never had a face-to-face. No standups, etc. Open source contributors
                                                      > > tend to be isolated and working whenever they can, not gathering together
                                                      > > at specified times and places and working together. When there is a
                                                      > > customer, it is because the developer is also a user of the software.
                                                      > > They go by recommended fixes and changes, or do what they want, instead
                                                      > > of planning games. Velocity isn't measured.
                                                      >
                                                      > You say all that like it's a bad thing...
                                                    • Phlip
                                                      ... That sounds like me using unit tests last year to find entry-level C++ bugs in the ACE-TAO-CIAO implementation of the Corba Components specification. (The
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Jul 9, 2007
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Jason Nocks wrote:

                                                        > Tim Ottinger wrote:

                                                        >> I got some open source software and started unit testing it, and when I
                                                        >> talked to the originators about mocking, he treated me like I was an
                                                        >> idiot.
                                                        >> Clearly I am stupid to want to run it without input files and
                                                        >> configuration
                                                        >> files, and what kind of idiot am I? Eventually, after the abuse, he got
                                                        >
                                                        > Arrogance is a human trait that Open Source contributors are not immune
                                                        > from.

                                                        That sounds like me using unit tests last year to find entry-level C++ bugs
                                                        in the ACE-TAO-CIAO implementation of the Corba Components specification.

                                                        (The first paragraph there - certainly not the second one!)

                                                        Just what I need - once again getting flamed in a public forum by a tenured
                                                        professor... >sigh<

                                                        --
                                                        Phlip
                                                        http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596510657/
                                                        "Test Driven Ajax (on Rails)"
                                                        assert_xpath, assert_javascript, & assert_ajax
                                                      • Tim Ottinger
                                                        It s not my understanding that all OSS people are TDD-ignorant. It is my experience that the ones I have worked with do not understand the value of it. It is
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Jul 10, 2007
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          It's not my understanding that all OSS people are TDD-ignorant. It is my experience that the ones I have worked with do not understand the value of it. It is my understanding that the "normal" state is that they do not require or even encourage in the majority of projects because it is unwise to create barriers for new contributors. Encouraging contribution is pretty important.

                                                          There are certainly some TDD projects where unit testing is welcome, if not required. Some, like the one I described in the earlier posting, do testing but don't understand the use of test doubles and so are not really doing unit testing so much as end-to-end testing (which is certainly valuable, compared to the many projects where they do no such thing). So just as with people and companies, there are many levels of enlightenment.

                                                          Of course, I suppose that all the TDD frameworks are built with heavy TDD. :-) I would not be surprised if there are some entirely TDDed OSS projects out there.
                                                          But I do believe that there are barriers to TDD that are common to OSS, including the barrier-to-contribution concern, varying degrees of enlightenment, and lack of interest. I expect it to get better. I think that barrier-to-contribution is the only bit unique to OSS. The rest are common to business programming. Closed source development is not generally better.

                                                          I love OSS. I use a lot of OSS, and in fact am a bit disdainful of mass-market, for-pay software. I've been using linux for over seven years, and open source longer than that. I've been programming since 79, and remember when pretty much all software was free (CP/M days). I've only lately become interested in joining projects and giving back, so I guess I'm a little slow or a little greedy, but that's neither here nor there. The relative lack of TDD hasn't damaged my appreciation for volunteer software.

                                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                                          From: Jason Nocks <nocksj@...>
                                                          To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com

                                                          > around to answering my question. It is sad that they don't understand the
                                                          > whole TDD thing, indeed, but it's amazing what they do without it.

                                                          I get the impression from "*they* don't understand the whole TDD thing", that
                                                          you think *nobody* in the FOSS (Free / Open Source Software) community is
                                                          doing TDD, or that TDD is beyond them. Have I misunderstood your post?

                                                          I often use the KDE project as a FOSS example. It just happens to be the one
                                                          I've studied the most. For anyone not familiar, KDE is the "K Desktop
                                                          Environment", one of the two full desktop environments on GNU/Linux that I'm
                                                          familiar with. It's a very large project that has been going on for quite
                                                          some time.

                                                          I googled "KDE unit test". I do not go to the European KDE conferences, but
                                                          was very pleased to see a recent TDD presentation by members of the KDE
                                                          community I've never met before:

                                                          http://akademy2007.kde.org/conference/talks/20.php

                                                          So, there's at least one FOSS project that the TDD infection seems to still be
                                                          spreading.








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