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Re: [XP] Theologists and missionaries

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  • dnicolet99
    That s an interesting phenomenon. It sounds as if institutions become comfortable with what they believe they already know, and stop reassessing those things.
    Message 1 of 31 , May 1, 2007
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      That's an interesting phenomenon. It sounds as if institutions become
      comfortable with what they believe they already know, and stop
      reassessing those things. I can see it can save time by avoiding
      repeating research that has already been done, but I can also see it
      leading to stagnation.

      I noticed in a recent post someone stated that they had picked up
      better-qualified applicants for agile development from Poland than
      they could find from UK universities. I wonder if this is a mechanism
      that enables emerging countries to overtake the existing leaders in
      various fields. The existing leaders become stagnant and fail to
      embrace improvements in the field, thus allowing an emerging country
      to become the new leader.

      Dave




      --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Gordon"
      <sgordonphd@...> wrote:
      >
      > On 5/1/07, John Roth <JohnRoth1@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Paolo Bizzarri" <pibizza@...>
      > > To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 8:13 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [XP] Theologists and missionaries
      > >
      > > > On 5/1/07, John Roth <JohnRoth1@...> wrote:
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >> ----- Original Message -----
      > > >> From: "Paolo Bizzarri" <pibizza@...>
      > > >> To: <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
      > > >>
      > > >> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:41 PM
      > > >> Subject: Re: [XP] Theologists and missionaries
      > > >>
      > > >> > On 4/30/07, John Roth <JohnRoth1@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > ...
      > >
      > > >>
      > > >> It did, however, come out of the Smalltalk environment. Most of
      > > >> what we think of as XP came out of the Smalltalk environment.
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > > But my point was that
      > > > there was no trace of something like TDD in the Computer Science
      > > > theory, at least as it was teached in Italy among the end of
      the '80
      > > > and the beginning of the '90.
      > >
      > > I don't consider that surprising. A lot of university courses
      look for
      > > "academic respectability." Djikstra, Hoare, Wirth, etc. are
      academically
      > > respectable; they had Ph.Ds (or the equivalent), they were professors
      > > of various things, they published papers. People like Alan Kay, Kent
      > > Beck and so forth are not acacemically respectable. They aren't on
      > > university faculties, they don't have a long list of academic
      publications
      > > that have high citation indices, etc.
      > >
      > > >
      > > >> Now consider the environment that Wirth, Djikstra, Hoare and
      their
      > > >> collegues worked in. They did not have personal workstations
      > > >> at their disposal, neither did their students. They did not
      grow up
      > > >> in that environment.
      > > >
      > > > Yes. But this was exactly my point: they could not come with
      something
      > > > better than weakest preconditions, because they were not developing
      > > > code. They were neither interested, nor ready to produce a better
      > > > theory for the current environment.
      > >
      > > It would certainly be interesting to see what people of that ability
      > > level would come up with today.
      >
      > Each year, the pressure increases in academia to do research that
      > brings in funding. How to program is pretty much considered solved
      > and not considered worthy of funding by the government granting
      > agencies. It would only be slightly less difficult to get private
      > funding, and the amounts would tend to be lower.
      >
      > Nothing prevents getting a grant to develop something in a specific
      > domain and utilizing agile methods, but it would not generally produce
      > publishable research on agile methods. A major reason for this is that
      > agile programming is about people not formal entities. The research
      > protocols would have to be much more like those in social science than
      > computer science or engineering. This would not only require
      > significant research skills not typically mastered in computer science
      > and distraction from the fundable parts of the research, but would
      > also make these results difficult to publish in mainstream computer
      > science journals.
      >
      > In other words, any researcher who would pursue a research program in
      > agile methologies would be committing professional suicide (been
      > there, done that! - not that I have anywhere near the ability of
      > Wirth, Djikstra, Hoare, etc.).
      >
      > The biggest obstacle I found to teaching agile programming approaches
      > are that all but the first and last programming classes are explicitly
      > phasistic (just analysis/design/modeling, just programming languages,
      > just formal methods, ...).
      >
      > Steven Gordon, PhD
      >
    • Steve Freeman
      There are actually a few. Sheffield has been running a very interesting programme for several years now (that s why the XP conference was held there). I ve
      Message 31 of 31 , May 3, 2007
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        There are actually a few. Sheffield has been running a very
        interesting programme for several years now (that's why the XP
        conference was held there). I've been teaching a few bits and pieces
        with Ivan Moore at University College. I think Huddersfield does
        something. It's not exactly a landslide, but it's catching on.

        S.

        On 1 May 2007, at 16:49, Elizabeth Keogh wrote:
        > IIRC Aberystwyth is the only university in the UK which teaches any
        > of the
        > Agile practices - there may be a second by now (?).
        >
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