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[MOD] recent remarks result in moderation

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  • Ron Jeffries
    I have placed rett on moderation until he undertakes to abide by local standards, which allow intense discourse but not intentional rudeness. John, I would
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 24, 2007
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      I have placed "rett" on moderation until he undertakes to abide by
      local standards, which allow intense discourse but not intentional
      rudeness.

      John, I would appreciate it if you (and any other active moderators)
      take on the actual determination of what posts of his should be
      allowed, in the interest of cooler heads prevailing. Feel free to
      pass through anything he may address to me.

      Thanks,

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Resistance may or may not be futile. It is for sure not productive.
    • Adrian Howard
      ... Thank you. Adrian
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 24, 2007
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        On 24 Apr 2007, at 13:30, Ron Jeffries wrote:

        > I have placed "rett" on moderation until he undertakes to abide by
        > local standards, which allow intense discourse but not intentional
        > rudeness.

        Thank you.

        Adrian
      • John Roth
        Sure. John Roth Moderator. ... From: Ron Jeffries To: extremeprogramming Sent: Tuesday,
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 24, 2007
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          Sure.

          John Roth
          Moderator.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...>
          To: "extremeprogramming" <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 6:30 AM
          Subject: [XP] [MOD] recent remarks result in moderation


          >I have placed "rett" on moderation until he undertakes to abide by
          > local standards, which allow intense discourse but not intentional
          > rudeness.
          >
          > John, I would appreciate it if you (and any other active moderators)
          > take on the actual determination of what posts of his should be
          > allowed, in the interest of cooler heads prevailing. Feel free to
          > pass through anything he may address to me.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Ron Jeffries
          > www.XProgramming.com
          > Resistance may or may not be futile. It is for sure not productive.
          >
          >
        • Seyit Caglar Abbasoglu
          Is there anyone other than me thinks that aggression level on the group is getting higher and higher. What can we do about it? Or should we do something? ...
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 24, 2007
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            Is there anyone other than me thinks that aggression level on the group is
            getting higher and higher.

            What can we do about it? Or should we do something?

            On 4/24/07, John Roth <JohnRoth1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Sure.
            >
            > John Roth
            > Moderator.
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@...<ronjeffries%40XProgramming.com>
            > >
            > To: "extremeprogramming" <extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com<extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
            > >
            > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 6:30 AM
            > Subject: [XP] [MOD] recent remarks result in moderation
            >
            > >I have placed "rett" on moderation until he undertakes to abide by
            > > local standards, which allow intense discourse but not intentional
            > > rudeness.
            > >
            > > John, I would appreciate it if you (and any other active moderators)
            > > take on the actual determination of what posts of his should be
            > > allowed, in the interest of cooler heads prevailing. Feel free to
            > > pass through anything he may address to me.
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > > Ron Jeffries
            > > www.XProgramming.com
            > > Resistance may or may not be futile. It is for sure not productive.
            > >
            > >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Steve Ropa
            I personally think Ron just did the right thing about it. Other than that, I think the best thing we can do is be our own moderators and be sure we are not
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 24, 2007
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              I personally think Ron just did the right thing about it. Other than that,
              I think the best thing we can do is be our own moderators and be sure we are
              not adding to an aggressive feel.



              Steve



              _____

              From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Seyit Caglar
              Abbasoglu
              Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:19 AM
              To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [XP] [MOD] recent remarks result in moderation



              Is there anyone other than me thinks that aggression level on the group is
              getting higher and higher.

              What can we do about it? Or should we do something?

              On 4/24/07, John Roth <JohnRoth1@gmail. <mailto:JohnRoth1%40gmail.com> com>
              wrote:
              >
              > Sure.
              >
              > John Roth
              > Moderator.
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Ron Jeffries" <ronjeffries@ <mailto:ronjeffries%40XProgramming.com>
              XProgramming.com<ronjeffries%40XProgramming.com>
              > >
              > To: "extremeprogramming" <extremeprogramming@
              <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com<extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
              > >
              > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 6:30 AM
              > Subject: [XP] [MOD] recent remarks result in moderation
              >
              > >I have placed "rett" on moderation until he undertakes to abide by
              > > local standards, which allow intense discourse but not intentional
              > > rudeness.
              > >
              > > John, I would appreciate it if you (and any other active moderators)
              > > take on the actual determination of what posts of his should be
              > > allowed, in the interest of cooler heads prevailing. Feel free to
              > > pass through anything he may address to me.
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > >
              > > Ron Jeffries
              > > www.XProgramming.com
              > > Resistance may or may not be futile. It is for sure not productive.
              > >
              > >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Elizabeth Keogh
              ... is ... Be excellent to one another. - Bill Party on, dudes! - Ted -- Elizabeth Keogh liz@thoughtworks.com http://sirenian.livejournal.com
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 24, 2007
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                Seyit wrote on 24/04/2007 16:19:15:

                > Is there anyone other than me thinks that aggression level on the group
                is
                > getting higher and higher.
                >
                > What can we do about it? Or should we do something?

                "Be excellent to one another."
                - Bill

                "Party on, dudes!"
                - Ted


                --
                Elizabeth Keogh
                liz@...
                http://sirenian.livejournal.com
                http://jbehave.org

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Adrian Howard
                ... Words to live by :-) Adrian
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 24, 2007
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                  On 24 Apr 2007, at 16:30, Elizabeth Keogh wrote:

                  > "Be excellent to one another."
                  > - Bill
                  >
                  > "Party on, dudes!"
                  > - Ted

                  Words to live by :-)

                  Adrian
                • Ron Jeffries
                  Hello, Seyit. On Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 11:19:15 AM, you ... Things go up and down. I ve seen better; I ve seen worse. ... Be nice? Ron Jeffries
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 24, 2007
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                    Hello, Seyit. On Tuesday, April 24, 2007, at 11:19:15 AM, you
                    wrote:

                    > Is there anyone other than me thinks that aggression level on the group is
                    > getting higher and higher.

                    Things go up and down. I've seen better; I've seen worse.

                    > What can we do about it? Or should we do something?

                    Be nice?

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    Adapt, improvise, overcome.
                    --Gunnery Sergeant Tom Highway (Heartbreak Ridge)
                  • Kevin Lawrence
                    ... We have always been accused (unfairly IMO) of being zealots - the last couple of months have felt like we are trying to live down to our reputation. The
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 24, 2007
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                      On 4/24/07, Seyit Caglar Abbasoglu <scabbasoglu@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Is there anyone other than me thinks that aggression level on the group is
                      > getting higher and higher.
                      >
                      >

                      We have always been accused (unfairly IMO) of being zealots - the last
                      couple of months have felt like we are trying to live down to our
                      reputation. The tone has been positively unpleasant - especially to newbies
                      and those who, for whatever reason, are unable to set their dials to 11.

                      I'll second Liz's & Bill's advice to be excellent to one another and add ...
                      especially to those who seek our advice.

                      --
                      Kevin

                      http://www.junitfactory.com
                      You send us code. We send you tests. For free.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Desilets, Alain
                      ... Well, after two days away from this list, in which time I was able to soak my head and have a heart to heart talk with Gary Brown (we re best buddies now,
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 25, 2007
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                        > Kevin wrote:
                        >
                        > We have always been accused (unfairly IMO) of being zealots -
                        > the last couple of months have felt like we are trying to
                        > live down to our reputation. The tone has been positively
                        > unpleasant - especially to newbies and those who, for
                        > whatever reason, are unable to set their dials to 11.

                        Well, after two days away from this list, in which time I was able to soak my head and have a heart to heart talk with Gary Brown (we're best buddies now, and I'm not being sarcastic when I say it), I feel ready to contribute to this list again.

                        This may be the wrong way to start, but I want to say that Kevin perfectly captured my experience as a newbie to this list (but not to XP... I have 5 years experience using XP practices).

                        In 15 years spent on various professional mailing lists, this was the first time (the FIRS EVER, not ONE OF THE FEW) that I was riled up to the point of loosing sleep over it (and I mean this litterally). It was also the first time that I felt I needed to have a private heart-to-heart chat with a participant in order to resolve a conflict. It was also the first time I felt I could use an intervention from a moderator.

                        I have heard a few people talk about the "edge" as being a positive attribute of this list. I personally find it counterproductive. It inhibits participation from more "middle of the road" people like me.

                        I have to leave the list for a couple of days now. Rest assure that it's not because I'm pouting. I just have some work to catch up with.

                        Looking forward to more interactions on this list after that.


                        ----
                        Alain Désilets, MASc
                        Agent de recherches/Research Officer
                        Institut de technologie de l'information du CNRC /
                        NRC Institute for Information Technology

                        alain.desilets@...
                        Tél/Tel (613) 990-2813
                        Facsimile/télécopieur: (613) 952-7151

                        Conseil national de recherches Canada, M50, 1200 chemin Montréal,
                        Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0R6
                        National Research Council Canada, M50, 1200 Montreal Rd., Ottawa, ON
                        K1A 0R6

                        Gouvernement du Canada | Government of Canada
                      • Joseph Little
                        Hi all, Two observations about this. 1. I recall that Kent Beck dialed it down in the second edition of his book. He was more patient with those starting to
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 25, 2007
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                          Hi all,

                          Two observations about this.

                          1. I recall that Kent Beck dialed it down in the second edition of his
                          book. He was more patient with those starting to try parts of XP. I
                          think one of his ideas was that it wasn't very agile to "force" people
                          to be agile my way. (Kent also made some witticism about his ability
                          to force anyone to do anything via a book.) (bad paraphrasing on my
                          part, I'm sure)

                          2. In my experience, most people don't react well to being "beat up".
                          It does not usually help you influence them to do agile better. This
                          is not to say you can't have some conviction in your voice...just
                          don't let them feel they personally are being attacked.

                          I do suppose the attack method has worked once or twice. If more often
                          than that, I for one will be happy to reconsider.

                          Thanks, Joe


                          --- In extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Lawrence"
                          <kev.lawrence@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On 4/24/07, Seyit Caglar Abbasoglu <scabbasoglu@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Is there anyone other than me thinks that aggression level on the
                          group is
                          > > getting higher and higher.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > We have always been accused (unfairly IMO) of being zealots - the last
                          > couple of months have felt like we are trying to live down to our
                          > reputation. The tone has been positively unpleasant - especially to
                          newbies
                          > and those who, for whatever reason, are unable to set their dials to 11.
                          >
                          > I'll second Liz's & Bill's advice to be excellent to one another and
                          add ...
                          > especially to those who seek our advice.
                          >
                          > --
                          > Kevin
                          >
                          > http://www.junitfactory.com
                          > You send us code. We send you tests. For free.
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Richard Newman
                          I couldn t resist jumping in here on the shirttails of Joe Little s post, though perhaps this isn t the best thread. ... Any championship for XP that attempts
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 25, 2007
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                            I couldn't resist jumping in here on the shirttails of Joe Little's
                            post, though perhaps this isn't the best thread.

                            > I recall that Kent Beck dialed it down in the second edition of his
                            > book. He was more patient with those starting to try parts of XP. I
                            > think one of his ideas was that it wasn't very agile to "force" people
                            > to be agile my way.

                            Any championship for XP that attempts to forces a group to use it a
                            certain way misses the real power of an agile approach. In my
                            experience, the motivation to force XP onto any group (or any other
                            approach for that matter) is from at least two sources: perfection as
                            the enemy of good (a la Voltaire) and common top-down design habits and
                            customs.

                            In our enthusiasm to realize the benefits from an agile process, we want
                            to leap right to it. We want it all, we want it perfect, and we want it
                            right away. So anything less is seen as not sufficiently XP and so is
                            not yet a Good Thing. And so we are likely to become frustrated, start
                            jumping up and down and raising our voice.

                            However, agile philosophy promotes iteration: instead the ideal of what
                            XP can be for a given group is at the center of Boehm's proverbial
                            spiral. Just as we iterate the code base to pursue a vision for our
                            software
                            result, so too can we iterate our implementation of XP practices to
                            approach that ideal -- an ideal that evolves according to our
                            circumstances and needs. It's the continuous progress that is the Good
                            Thing.

                            Second, across seasoned veterans and newly minted engineers, there is
                            that allure of the Big Design Up Front, in many cases entrenched in
                            culture and custom. If we just try hard enough and if we're just smart
                            enough, the egoistic thinking goes, we can outline up front what the
                            ideal XP process should be and then simply execute it. For the same
                            reasons that agile processes reject that approach for coding, so too
                            must we reject it in managing our engineering processes. Again, we want
                            just enough progress where needed, where feasible: be relentless about
                            continuous improvement and be relentless about evaluating quality and
                            much of the rest will take care of itself.

                            And so I pursue a kind of meta-agility, a recursive XP so to speak. As
                            it applies to the small (the code base), so to should it apply to the
                            large (the engineering approach holistically) and the strategic. There
                            is no
                            forcing it, rather you coach it.

                            I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, but sometimes I just enjoy being in
                            the same room and having the conversation.

                            Kind regards,
                            Richard Newman
                          • rett
                            Richard, It sounds like you have been reading Deming. He is the source for most of the philosophy of constant improvement, and built-in quality. Understanding
                            Message 13 of 15 , Apr 25, 2007
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                              Richard,

                              It sounds like you have been reading Deming. He is the source for most
                              of the
                              philosophy of constant improvement, and built-in quality. Understanding
                              of the
                              principles that you have so ably described has allowed the Japanese to
                              kick our
                              tail ends in almost every type of manufacturing. If they treated the
                              rest of their
                              economy in the way they do their manufacturing processes, we could not
                              compete
                              at all.

                              Everett L.(Rett) Williams II

                              Richard Newman wrote:
                              > I couldn't resist jumping in here on the shirttails of Joe Little's
                              > post, though perhaps this isn't the best thread.
                              >
                              > > I recall that Kent Beck dialed it down in the second edition of his
                              > > book. He was more patient with those starting to try parts of XP. I
                              > > think one of his ideas was that it wasn't very agile to "force" people
                              > > to be agile my way.
                              >
                              > Any championship for XP that attempts to forces a group to use it a
                              > certain way misses the real power of an agile approach. In my
                              > experience, the motivation to force XP onto any group (or any other
                              > approach for that matter) is from at least two sources: perfection as
                              > the enemy of good (a la Voltaire) and common top-down design habits and
                              > customs.
                              >
                              > In our enthusiasm to realize the benefits from an agile process, we want
                              > to leap right to it. We want it all, we want it perfect, and we want it
                              > right away. So anything less is seen as not sufficiently XP and so is
                              > not yet a Good Thing. And so we are likely to become frustrated, start
                              > jumping up and down and raising our voice.
                              >
                              > However, agile philosophy promotes iteration: instead the ideal of what
                              > XP can be for a given group is at the center of Boehm's proverbial
                              > spiral. Just as we iterate the code base to pursue a vision for our
                              > software
                              > result, so too can we iterate our implementation of XP practices to
                              > approach that ideal -- an ideal that evolves according to our
                              > circumstances and needs. It's the continuous progress that is the Good
                              > Thing.
                              >
                              > Second, across seasoned veterans and newly minted engineers, there is
                              > that allure of the Big Design Up Front, in many cases entrenched in
                              > culture and custom. If we just try hard enough and if we're just smart
                              > enough, the egoistic thinking goes, we can outline up front what the
                              > ideal XP process should be and then simply execute it. For the same
                              > reasons that agile processes reject that approach for coding, so too
                              > must we reject it in managing our engineering processes. Again, we want
                              > just enough progress where needed, where feasible: be relentless about
                              > continuous improvement and be relentless about evaluating quality and
                              > much of the rest will take care of itself.
                              >
                              > And so I pursue a kind of meta-agility, a recursive XP so to speak. As
                              > it applies to the small (the code base), so to should it apply to the
                              > large (the engineering approach holistically) and the strategic. There
                              > is no
                              > forcing it, rather you coach it.
                              >
                              > I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, but sometimes I just enjoy being in
                              > the same room and having the conversation.
                              >
                              > Kind regards,
                              > Richard Newman
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                              >
                              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                              >
                              > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Richard Newman
                              Rett, It s been a while since I ve read him, but yes, I agree with you: XP/Agile is just software engineering s form of JIT manufacturing (the same that
                              Message 14 of 15 , Apr 26, 2007
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                                Rett,

                                It's been a while since I've read him, but yes, I agree with you:
                                XP/Agile is just software engineering's form of JIT manufacturing (the
                                same that allowed Toyota to overtake GM this week).

                                Richard


                                rett wrote:
                                > Richard,
                                >
                                > It sounds like you have been reading Deming. He is the source for most
                                > of the
                                > philosophy of constant improvement, and built-in quality. Understanding
                                > of the
                                > principles that you have so ably described has allowed the Japanese to
                                > kick our
                                > tail ends in almost every type of manufacturing. If they treated the
                                > rest of their
                                > economy in the way they do their manufacturing processes, we could not
                                > compete
                                > at all.
                                >
                                > Everett L.(Rett) Williams II
                                >
                                > Richard Newman wrote:
                                >> I couldn't resist jumping in here on the shirttails of Joe Little's
                                >> post, though perhaps this isn't the best thread.
                                >>
                                >> > I recall that Kent Beck dialed it down in the second edition of his
                                >> > book. He was more patient with those starting to try parts of XP. I
                                >> > think one of his ideas was that it wasn't very agile to "force" people
                                >> > to be agile my way.
                                >>
                                >> Any championship for XP that attempts to forces a group to use it a
                                >> certain way misses the real power of an agile approach. In my
                                >> experience, the motivation to force XP onto any group (or any other
                                >> approach for that matter) is from at least two sources: perfection as
                                >> the enemy of good (a la Voltaire) and common top-down design habits and
                                >> customs.
                                >>
                                >> In our enthusiasm to realize the benefits from an agile process, we want
                                >> to leap right to it. We want it all, we want it perfect, and we want it
                                >> right away. So anything less is seen as not sufficiently XP and so is
                                >> not yet a Good Thing. And so we are likely to become frustrated, start
                                >> jumping up and down and raising our voice.
                                >>
                                >> However, agile philosophy promotes iteration: instead the ideal of what
                                >> XP can be for a given group is at the center of Boehm's proverbial
                                >> spiral. Just as we iterate the code base to pursue a vision for our
                                >> software
                                >> result, so too can we iterate our implementation of XP practices to
                                >> approach that ideal -- an ideal that evolves according to our
                                >> circumstances and needs. It's the continuous progress that is the Good
                                >> Thing.
                                >>
                                >> Second, across seasoned veterans and newly minted engineers, there is
                                >> that allure of the Big Design Up Front, in many cases entrenched in
                                >> culture and custom. If we just try hard enough and if we're just smart
                                >> enough, the egoistic thinking goes, we can outline up front what the
                                >> ideal XP process should be and then simply execute it. For the same
                                >> reasons that agile processes reject that approach for coding, so too
                                >> must we reject it in managing our engineering processes. Again, we want
                                >> just enough progress where needed, where feasible: be relentless about
                                >> continuous improvement and be relentless about evaluating quality and
                                >> much of the rest will take care of itself.
                                >>
                                >> And so I pursue a kind of meta-agility, a recursive XP so to speak. As
                                >> it applies to the small (the code base), so to should it apply to the
                                >> large (the engineering approach holistically) and the strategic. There
                                >> is no
                                >> forcing it, rather you coach it.
                                >>
                                >> I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, but sometimes I just enjoy being in
                                >> the same room and having the conversation.
                                >>
                                >> Kind regards,
                                >> Richard Newman
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                >>
                                >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                >>
                                >> ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                > To Post a message, send it to: extremeprogramming@...
                                >
                                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: extremeprogramming-unsubscribe@...
                                >
                                > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com
                              • Kent Beck
                                I ve seen this opinion, that I dialed down XP in the second edition, several times. I acknowledge that people read the second edition as somehow softer and
                                Message 15 of 15 , May 1, 2007
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                                  I've seen this opinion, that I "dialed down" XP in the second edition,
                                  several times. I acknowledge that people read the second edition as somehow
                                  "softer" and more flexible (if that's the right word) than the first. The
                                  second edition's lack of ammunition for attack is deliberate. My goal is to
                                  work from principles based on my values so that I can be as agile as
                                  possible in my work. A checklist of even the "right" practices still has
                                  the inflexibility of a checklist. It is superimposed from outside. Working
                                  in accord with my principles and values allows me much more flexibility, but
                                  requires much more awareness on my part. I agree with you that even the
                                  best ideas are not best accomplished by force.

                                  I think the second edition presents a more rigorous and demanding process
                                  than the first. The second edition expects you to pay attention to people
                                  and context, not just check off a bullet list of practices. Incremental
                                  application was always part of XP, from "solve your worst problem the XP
                                  way, repeat" in the first edition to the appreciative inquiry style I use
                                  now. Daily Deployment and Pay-per-use alone generally require years of
                                  practice to achieve. The addition of Respect as a value offers personal
                                  challenges enough to last their whole career (at least it does for me).

                                  I'd appreciate hearing from folks whose process meets the "dialed down"
                                  second edition but doesn't match XPE1e. If the second edition is really
                                  softer and squishier, more teams should satisfy its criteria. My experience
                                  is the reverse--you can do XP "by the book [first edition]" without respect,
                                  without engaging the whole business, without accountability, without taking
                                  full responsibility for the process and the results. It is much harder to
                                  consider value to the business as a whole than what is good for me as a
                                  programmer.

                                  Regards,

                                  Kent Beck
                                  Three Rivers Institute

                                  _____

                                  From: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Little
                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:31 AM
                                  To: extremeprogramming@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [XP] Re: [MOD] recent remarks result in moderation



                                  Hi all,

                                  Two observations about this.

                                  1. I recall that Kent Beck dialed it down in the second edition of his
                                  book. He was more patient with those starting to try parts of XP. I
                                  think one of his ideas was that it wasn't very agile to "force" people
                                  to be agile my way. (Kent also made some witticism about his ability
                                  to force anyone to do anything via a book.) (bad paraphrasing on my
                                  part, I'm sure)

                                  2. In my experience, most people don't react well to being "beat up".
                                  It does not usually help you influence them to do agile better. This
                                  is not to say you can't have some conviction in your voice...just
                                  don't let them feel they personally are being attacked.

                                  I do suppose the attack method has worked once or twice. If more often
                                  than that, I for one will be happy to reconsider.

                                  Thanks, Joe

                                  --- In extremeprogramming@ <mailto:extremeprogramming%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Lawrence"
                                  <kev.lawrence@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > On 4/24/07, Seyit Caglar Abbasoglu <scabbasoglu@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Is there anyone other than me thinks that aggression level on the
                                  group is
                                  > > getting higher and higher.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > We have always been accused (unfairly IMO) of being zealots - the last
                                  > couple of months have felt like we are trying to live down to our
                                  > reputation. The tone has been positively unpleasant - especially to
                                  newbies
                                  > and those who, for whatever reason, are unable to set their dials to 11.
                                  >
                                  > I'll second Liz's & Bill's advice to be excellent to one another and
                                  add ...
                                  > especially to those who seek our advice.
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Kevin
                                  >
                                  > http://www.junitfac <http://www.junitfactory.com> tory.com
                                  > You send us code. We send you tests. For free.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >






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