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Re: [XP] Does C++ unit testing become easier ?

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  • Ron Jeffries
    Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 10:33:15 AM, you ... Not necessarily. That was, I believe, my original point. While I do think that is /a/ good
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
      Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 10:33:15 AM, you
      wrote:

      > Ron Jeffries wrote:

      >> That does not imply that the developer therefore owns features

      > Developers own one user story during one iteration...

      Not necessarily. That was, I believe, my original point. While I do
      think that is /a/ good way, I don't think it is the only acceptable
      XP way.

      Take Arlo Belshee, for example.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Assume that anything you didn't like was the funny stuff.
      -- Jim Shore
    • Phlip
      ... If Mr Q pencil the estimate on a story card, I check with him, or his next-of-kin at least, before yanking it off the board and doing it. Right?? -- Phlip
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
        Ron Jeffries wrote:

        >> Developers own one user story during one iteration...
        >
        > Not necessarily. That was, I believe, my original point. While I do
        > think that is /a/ good way, I don't think it is the only acceptable
        > XP way.

        If Mr Q pencil the estimate on a story card, I check with him, or his
        next-of-kin at least, before yanking it off the board and doing it. Right??

        --
        Phlip
        http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
      • John A. De Goes
        Hi Steven, ... A feature is something that the customer wants. When a feature is implemented, the customer will be able to discern it. Generally, a feature is
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
          Hi Steven,

          > thank you John. if i still has something to ask on this subject, i
          > think that is what is the essential difference between feature and
          > tasks. can you show some examples?

          A feature is something that the customer wants. When a feature is implemented, the customer will be able to discern it. Generally, a feature is something the customer can use, see, hear, touch, or feel (depending on the context).

          In a word processor, one feature might be the ability to italicize text in the document. In an interface for a digital camera, a feature might be the ability to change the number of frames per second. In an SDK targeted at programmers, a feature might be the ability to register a callback that's notified of state changes.

          Features are distinguished by the fact that they have value to the customer. Customers can look at them and say, 'Yeah, that feature moved the program closer to my goal.'

          In order to implement a feature, a programmer has to go through a number of tasks. These tasks are not generally visible to the user, and it's not obvious to the user that the program is any closer to her goal, when some task or another has been completed.

          Are the developers generally assigned 'tasks' at your company?

          Regards,

          John
        • Ron Jeffries
          Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 11:38:54 AM, you ... Yes, I think working together on things is a really good idea ... Ron Jeffries
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
            Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 11:38:54 AM, you
            wrote:

            >>> Developers own one user story during one iteration...
            >>
            >> Not necessarily. That was, I believe, my original point. While I do
            >> think that is /a/ good way, I don't think it is the only acceptable
            >> XP way.

            > If Mr Q pencil the estimate on a story card, I check with him, or his
            > next-of-kin at least, before yanking it off the board and doing it. Right??

            Yes, I think working together on things is a really good idea ...

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            Any errors you find in this are the work of Secret Villains,
            whose mad schemes will soon be revealed. -- Wil McCarthy
          • Phlip
            ... Okay. Mr Q, our database guy , wrote a 10 minute estimate on the card. I, who know least about the database, will pull it and go pair with Mr. Spalding,
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
              Ron Jeffries wrote:

              >> If Mr Q pencil the estimate on a story card, I check with him, or his
              >> next-of-kin at least, before yanking it off the board and doing it.
              >> Right??
              >
              > Yes, I think working together on things is a really good idea ...

              Okay. Mr Q, our "database guy", wrote a 10 minute estimate on the card. I,
              who know least about the database, will pull it and go pair with Mr.
              Spalding, who knows the second-least.

              A-working-together we go!

              --
              Phlip
              http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
            • Adrian Sutton
              ... This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you will both know more about the database and be more productive, valuable members of the
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                On 04/12/2006, at 5:45 AM, Phlip wrote:
                > Okay. Mr Q, our "database guy", wrote a 10 minute estimate on the
                > card. I,
                > who know least about the database, will pull it and go pair with Mr.
                > Spalding, who knows the second-least.
                >
                > A-working-together we go!

                This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                been increased.

                If along the way you need help, you'll ask for it because everyone in
                your team is happy to offer assistance and their close by because you
                all sit together. The worst possible outcome is that the task you're
                implementing is such a mess it needs to be thrown out and started
                again, but you can't possibly break anything that's already working
                because the tests will tell you about it before you check in.

                If any of the above isn't true in your team then you have a problem,
                but it doesn't lie in who is taking on the task. One thing I can see
                as a problem is that you have individual developers estimating tasks
                rather than the team as a whole. While this is tempting to speed up
                the estimating process, it means that the person who estimated the
                task is likely the only person for whom the estimate is valid. If
                they happen to be sick for a few days, or busy with something else,
                you're in trouble.

                At least, that's the way I see it. It's not easy to get to that
                stage, but I do see it as a very worthwhile goal.

                Regards,

                Adrian Sutton
                http://www.symphonious.net
              • Phlip
                ... I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working together, and you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I grab it and a
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                  Adrian Sutton wrote:

                  > This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                  > will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                  > valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                  > been increased.

                  I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working together, and
                  you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I grab it
                  and a pair and spend 3 days doing it very badly.

                  --
                  Phlip
                  http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
                • Russel Hill
                  ... But, ... did you learn something in the process? Badly written code that has supporting tests can usually be dealt with. Possibly when the senior team
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                    On 12/3/06, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:
                    > > This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                    > > will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                    > > valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                    > > been increased.
                    >
                    > I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working together, and
                    > you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I grab it
                    > and a pair and spend 3 days doing it very badly.

                    But, ... did you learn something in the process?

                    Badly written code that has supporting tests can usually be dealt
                    with. Possibly when the senior team member returns the less
                    experienced team member(s) will get to pair on the cleanup. I have
                    occasionally allowed inexperienced pairs to go it alone for a few days
                    just to experience this. I think this helps them refine their skills
                    and develop a nose for smelly code.
                  • Adrian Sutton
                    ... Ah but you wouldn t, because you d come and ask for help once you realize you are struggling. Alternatively, you d mention you were working on it at the
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                      On 04/12/2006, at 8:13 AM, Phlip wrote:

                      > Adrian Sutton wrote:
                      >
                      >> This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                      >> will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                      >> valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                      >> been increased.
                      >
                      > I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working
                      > together, and
                      > you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I
                      > grab it
                      > and a pair and spend 3 days doing it very badly.

                      Ah but you wouldn't, because you'd come and ask for help once you
                      realize you are struggling. Alternatively, you'd mention you were
                      working on it at the next morning's stand up and I'd check in to see
                      how you're going. This is actually quite similar to my current
                      situation - I have more experience with the code base than anyone and
                      so I spend a lot of my time helping bring others up to speed when
                      they are venturing into areas they don't know much about yet.

                      Yes the work would get done faster if I did it myself, but that's
                      only a short term view. Even if I take up all my time helping the
                      five other team members to be more productive and learn more about
                      the code, the team as a whole will go faster than if I took on
                      everything myself and left them to struggle without assistance.

                      The key to making it works comes in the discussion that started off
                      this tangent:

                      >>> That does not imply that the developer therefore owns feature
                      >
                      >> Developers own one user story during one iteration...
                      >
                      > Not necessarily. That was, I believe, my original point. While I do
                      > think that is /a/ good way, I don't think it is the only acceptable
                      > XP way.

                      If you have developers that own a story, feature, task or class, they
                      can get themselves lost and struggle and the team won't be there to
                      help out. If the *team* owns all the stories, tasks, features and
                      classes then we all work together to make sure that everything gets
                      down. It can be useful for one person to take ownership of tracking
                      the progress of a story to make sure it doesn't fall between the
                      cracks, but the team as a whole is still responsible for doing the
                      work. Sharing the work load and responsibility also means sharing the
                      knowledge, so when someone in the team is struggling they can ask for
                      help or other team members will just notice they are struggling and
                      go and help.

                      My experience is that it works very well, but you do need a well
                      gelled team.

                      Regards,

                      Adrian Sutton
                      http://www.symphonious.net
                    • Ilja Preuss
                      ... I think you misunderstood what working together means. Take care, Ilja
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                        Phlip schrieb:
                        > Adrian Sutton wrote:
                        >
                        >> This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                        >> will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                        >> valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                        >> been increased.
                        >
                        > I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working together, and
                        > you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I grab it
                        > and a pair and spend 3 days doing it very badly.

                        I think you misunderstood what "working together" means.

                        Take care, Ilja
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 5:13:54 PM, you ... Even if you accepted the estimate blindly, wouldn t you be wise enough, at the end of the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                          Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 5:13:54 PM, you
                          wrote:

                          > Adrian Sutton wrote:

                          >> This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                          >> will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                          >> valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                          >> been increased.

                          > I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working together, and
                          > you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I grab it
                          > and a pair and spend 3 days doing it very badly.

                          Even if you accepted the estimate blindly, wouldn't you be wise
                          enough, at the end of the first day (if not the first morning) to
                          mention at the standup that you were in trouble?

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          Testing quality into a program is like spinning straw into gold.
                          -- George Cameron.
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