Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [XP] Does C++ unit testing become easier ?

Expand Messages
  • Ron Jeffries
    Hello, Steven. On Saturday, December 2, 2006, at 12:29:57 AM, you ... You have correctly identified that dividing the work between people by class doesn t
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 2, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello, Steven. On Saturday, December 2, 2006, at 12:29:57 AM, you
      wrote:

      > thank you very much, i begin to understan. but i still want to
      > question: how about working with other members in a team? here, you
      > can image C1, C2, C3 are not simple classses, they are actually
      > subsystem consisting many of classes to do a meanful job. we do a
      > rough front-design and have Tom to implement C1, and Jack to implement
      > C2 which will support the implementation of the C1. you see the
      > problem? if i don't want Tom to wail until Jack checkin a workable
      > version, i guess i will have to use mock, and if i won't, another
      > problem is every Tom's test will bother Jack. am i right? and how you
      > guys cure this kind of problem?

      You have correctly identified that dividing the work between people
      by class doesn't work.

      One good solution is ... don't do that.

      XP has practices like Pair Programming and Team Code Ownership to
      address that ...

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      Perhaps this Silver Bullet will tell you who I am ...
    • Steven Woody
      ... thank you. is there any book dedicately contribute to Pair Programming and Team Code Ownership? - woody
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 2, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        On 12/2/06, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hello, Steven. On Saturday, December 2, 2006, at 12:29:57 AM, you
        > wrote:
        >
        > > thank you very much, i begin to understan. but i still want to
        > > question: how about working with other members in a team? here, you
        > > can image C1, C2, C3 are not simple classses, they are actually
        > > subsystem consisting many of classes to do a meanful job. we do a
        > > rough front-design and have Tom to implement C1, and Jack to implement
        > > C2 which will support the implementation of the C1. you see the
        > > problem? if i don't want Tom to wail until Jack checkin a workable
        > > version, i guess i will have to use mock, and if i won't, another
        > > problem is every Tom's test will bother Jack. am i right? and how you
        > > guys cure this kind of problem?
        >
        > You have correctly identified that dividing the work between people
        > by class doesn't work.
        >
        > One good solution is ... don't do that.
        >
        > XP has practices like Pair Programming and Team Code Ownership to
        > address that ...
        >

        thank you. is there any book dedicately contribute to Pair
        Programming and Team Code Ownership?

        -
        woody
      • Keith Ray
        Pair Programming Illuminated is the book on pair programming. Collaboration Explained is another book, which is on my to-read list. There are a few more
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 2, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          "Pair Programming Illuminated" is the book on pair programming.

          "Collaboration Explained" is another book, which is on my to-read list.

          There are a few more here:

          http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/xpminifaq.html

          On 12/2/06, Steven Woody <narkewoody@...> wrote:
          > On 12/2/06, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hello, Steven. On Saturday, December 2, 2006, at 12:29:57 AM, you
          > > wrote:
          > >
          > > > thank you very much, i begin to understan. but i still want to
          > > > question: how about working with other members in a team? here, you
          > > > can image C1, C2, C3 are not simple classses, they are actually
          > > > subsystem consisting many of classes to do a meanful job. we do a
          > > > rough front-design and have Tom to implement C1, and Jack to implement
          > > > C2 which will support the implementation of the C1. you see the
          > > > problem? if i don't want Tom to wail until Jack checkin a workable
          > > > version, i guess i will have to use mock, and if i won't, another
          > > > problem is every Tom's test will bother Jack. am i right? and how you
          > > > guys cure this kind of problem?
          > >
          > > You have correctly identified that dividing the work between people
          > > by class doesn't work.
          > >
          > > One good solution is ... don't do that.
          > >
          > > XP has practices like Pair Programming and Team Code Ownership to
          > > address that ...
          > >
          >
          > thank you. is there any book dedicately contribute to Pair
          > Programming and Team Code Ownership?
          >
          > -
          > woody

          ----
          C. Keith Ray
        • John A. De Goes
          Hi Steven, ... I see you re trying to concurrently implement a collection of subsystems that depend on each other, based on an initial design. The problem with
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 2, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Steven,

            > thank you very much, i begin to understan. but i still want to
            > question: how about working with other members in a team? here,
            > you can image C1, C2, C3 are not simple classses, they are actually
            > subsystem consisting many of classes to do a meanful job. we do a
            > rough front-design and have Tom to implement C1, and Jack to
            > implement C2 which will support the implementation of the C1. you
            > see the problem?

            I see you're trying to concurrently implement a collection of subsystems that depend on each other, based on an initial design. The problem with this approach is one of waste:

            1. Your initial design is going to have some features it doesn't need;

            2. Because you can't anticipate everything you *will* need, some features you forgot will probably not fit into your architecture, and will force you to do substantial architectural revisions;

            3. Different teams will have different ideas about how the interfaces between the subsystems are supposed to operate, resulting in incompatibilities that need to be smoothed over;

            4. The design is constrained to fit your initial model, and while it may be possible to solve the problem in a way that fits the model, it may not be the most efficient way of solving the problem.

            One way to reduce waste, and avoid mock objects, is to practice 'vertical slice development.' In this approach, instead of coding individual subsystems (concurrently or sequentially), which you then try to glue together at the end, you divide the problem into 'features', each of which has some value to the 'customer'.

            The features generally cut through multiple subsystems. Team A takes feature 1, Team B takes feature 2, and Team C takes feature 3. If everyone is practicing continuous integration, checking their code in every few hours, then coherent subsystems will form naturally, through the process of refactoring.

            Regards,

            John
          • Phlip
            ... Shorter way to say it: Developers own features, not classes. You pull the card for a feature, you get a pair, you change here and there to implement the
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 2, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Ron Jeffries wrote:

              > You have correctly identified that dividing the work between people
              > by class doesn't work.
              >
              > One good solution is ... don't do that.
              >
              > XP has practices like Pair Programming and Team Code Ownership to
              > address that ...

              Shorter way to say it:

              Developers own features, not classes.

              You pull the card for a feature, you get a pair, you change here and there
              to implement the feature, and you check in.

              --
              Phlip
              http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
            • Steven Woody
              ... thank you John. if i still has something to ask on this subject, i think that is what is the essential difference between feature and tasks. can you show
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                On 12/3/06, John A. De Goes <john@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Steven,
                >
                > > thank you very much, i begin to understan. but i still want to
                > > question: how about working with other members in a team? here,
                > > you can image C1, C2, C3 are not simple classses, they are actually
                > > subsystem consisting many of classes to do a meanful job. we do a
                > > rough front-design and have Tom to implement C1, and Jack to
                > > implement C2 which will support the implementation of the C1. you
                > > see the problem?
                >
                > I see you're trying to concurrently implement a collection of subsystems that depend on each other, based on an initial design. The problem with this approach is one of waste:
                >
                > 1. Your initial design is going to have some features it doesn't need;
                >
                > 2. Because you can't anticipate everything you *will* need, some features you forgot will probably not fit into your architecture, and will force you to do substantial architectural revisions;
                >
                > 3. Different teams will have different ideas about how the interfaces between the subsystems are supposed to operate, resulting in incompatibilities that need to be smoothed over;
                >
                > 4. The design is constrained to fit your initial model, and while it may be possible to solve the problem in a way that fits the model, it may not be the most efficient way of solving the problem.
                >
                > One way to reduce waste, and avoid mock objects, is to practice 'vertical slice development.' In this approach, instead of coding individual subsystems (concurrently or sequentially), which you then try to glue together at the end, you divide the problem into 'features', each of which has some value to the 'customer'.
                >
                > The features generally cut through multiple subsystems. Team A takes feature 1, Team B takes feature 2, and Team C takes feature 3. If everyone is practicing continuous integration, checking their code in every few hours, then coherent subsystems will form naturally, through the process of refactoring.
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > John
                >

                thank you John. if i still has something to ask on this subject, i
                think that is what is the essential difference between feature and
                tasks. can you show some examples?

                thank you.

                -
                woody
              • Ron Jeffries
                Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 1:32:54 AM, you ... While I do personally prefer the developer owns feature pattern , as far as I know, that s
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 1:32:54 AM, you
                  wrote:

                  >> You have correctly identified that dividing the work between people
                  >> by class doesn't work.
                  >>
                  >> One good solution is ... don't do that.
                  >>
                  >> XP has practices like Pair Programming and Team Code Ownership to
                  >> address that ...

                  > Shorter way to say it:

                  > Developers own features, not classes.

                  > You pull the card for a feature, you get a pair, you change here and there
                  > to implement the feature, and you check in.

                  While I do personally prefer the developer owns feature "pattern",
                  as far as I know, that's not the only "XP" way to do it.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  A lot of preconceptions can be dismissed when you actually
                  try something out. -- Bruce Eckel
                • Phlip
                  ... Yet it s the inverse way to say developers don t own classes , an ideal which XP supports. -- Phlip http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ron Jeffries wrote:

                    >> Developers own features, not classes.
                    >
                    > While I do personally prefer the developer owns feature "pattern",
                    > as far as I know, that's not the only "XP" way to do it.

                    Yet it's the inverse way to say "developers don't own classes", an ideal
                    which XP supports.

                    --
                    Phlip
                    http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
                  • Ron Jeffries
                    Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 9:51:41 AM, you ... I believe that it might be that XP supports the notion that an individual developer
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 9:51:41 AM, you
                      wrote:

                      > Ron Jeffries wrote:

                      >>> Developers own features, not classes.
                      >>
                      >> While I do personally prefer the developer owns feature "pattern",
                      >> as far as I know, that's not the only "XP" way to do it.

                      > Yet it's the inverse way to say "developers don't own classes", an ideal
                      > which XP supports.

                      I believe that it might be that XP "supports" the notion that an
                      individual developer generally does not "own" specific parts of the
                      code.

                      That does not imply that the developer therefore owns features, and
                      I see no inverse relationship or other equivalence between "don't
                      own classes" and "do own features".

                      Ron Jeffries
                      www.XProgramming.com
                      No one expects the Spanish Inquisition ...
                    • Phlip
                      ... Developers own one user story during one iteration... -- Phlip http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Ron Jeffries wrote:

                        > That does not imply that the developer therefore owns features

                        Developers own one user story during one iteration...

                        --
                        Phlip
                        http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 10:33:15 AM, you ... Not necessarily. That was, I believe, my original point. While I do think that is /a/ good
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 10:33:15 AM, you
                          wrote:

                          > Ron Jeffries wrote:

                          >> That does not imply that the developer therefore owns features

                          > Developers own one user story during one iteration...

                          Not necessarily. That was, I believe, my original point. While I do
                          think that is /a/ good way, I don't think it is the only acceptable
                          XP way.

                          Take Arlo Belshee, for example.

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          Assume that anything you didn't like was the funny stuff.
                          -- Jim Shore
                        • Phlip
                          ... If Mr Q pencil the estimate on a story card, I check with him, or his next-of-kin at least, before yanking it off the board and doing it. Right?? -- Phlip
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Ron Jeffries wrote:

                            >> Developers own one user story during one iteration...
                            >
                            > Not necessarily. That was, I believe, my original point. While I do
                            > think that is /a/ good way, I don't think it is the only acceptable
                            > XP way.

                            If Mr Q pencil the estimate on a story card, I check with him, or his
                            next-of-kin at least, before yanking it off the board and doing it. Right??

                            --
                            Phlip
                            http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
                          • John A. De Goes
                            Hi Steven, ... A feature is something that the customer wants. When a feature is implemented, the customer will be able to discern it. Generally, a feature is
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Steven,

                              > thank you John. if i still has something to ask on this subject, i
                              > think that is what is the essential difference between feature and
                              > tasks. can you show some examples?

                              A feature is something that the customer wants. When a feature is implemented, the customer will be able to discern it. Generally, a feature is something the customer can use, see, hear, touch, or feel (depending on the context).

                              In a word processor, one feature might be the ability to italicize text in the document. In an interface for a digital camera, a feature might be the ability to change the number of frames per second. In an SDK targeted at programmers, a feature might be the ability to register a callback that's notified of state changes.

                              Features are distinguished by the fact that they have value to the customer. Customers can look at them and say, 'Yeah, that feature moved the program closer to my goal.'

                              In order to implement a feature, a programmer has to go through a number of tasks. These tasks are not generally visible to the user, and it's not obvious to the user that the program is any closer to her goal, when some task or another has been completed.

                              Are the developers generally assigned 'tasks' at your company?

                              Regards,

                              John
                            • Ron Jeffries
                              Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 11:38:54 AM, you ... Yes, I think working together on things is a really good idea ... Ron Jeffries
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 11:38:54 AM, you
                                wrote:

                                >>> Developers own one user story during one iteration...
                                >>
                                >> Not necessarily. That was, I believe, my original point. While I do
                                >> think that is /a/ good way, I don't think it is the only acceptable
                                >> XP way.

                                > If Mr Q pencil the estimate on a story card, I check with him, or his
                                > next-of-kin at least, before yanking it off the board and doing it. Right??

                                Yes, I think working together on things is a really good idea ...

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                Any errors you find in this are the work of Secret Villains,
                                whose mad schemes will soon be revealed. -- Wil McCarthy
                              • Phlip
                                ... Okay. Mr Q, our database guy , wrote a 10 minute estimate on the card. I, who know least about the database, will pull it and go pair with Mr. Spalding,
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Ron Jeffries wrote:

                                  >> If Mr Q pencil the estimate on a story card, I check with him, or his
                                  >> next-of-kin at least, before yanking it off the board and doing it.
                                  >> Right??
                                  >
                                  > Yes, I think working together on things is a really good idea ...

                                  Okay. Mr Q, our "database guy", wrote a 10 minute estimate on the card. I,
                                  who know least about the database, will pull it and go pair with Mr.
                                  Spalding, who knows the second-least.

                                  A-working-together we go!

                                  --
                                  Phlip
                                  http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
                                • Adrian Sutton
                                  ... This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you will both know more about the database and be more productive, valuable members of the
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On 04/12/2006, at 5:45 AM, Phlip wrote:
                                    > Okay. Mr Q, our "database guy", wrote a 10 minute estimate on the
                                    > card. I,
                                    > who know least about the database, will pull it and go pair with Mr.
                                    > Spalding, who knows the second-least.
                                    >
                                    > A-working-together we go!

                                    This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                                    will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                                    valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                                    been increased.

                                    If along the way you need help, you'll ask for it because everyone in
                                    your team is happy to offer assistance and their close by because you
                                    all sit together. The worst possible outcome is that the task you're
                                    implementing is such a mess it needs to be thrown out and started
                                    again, but you can't possibly break anything that's already working
                                    because the tests will tell you about it before you check in.

                                    If any of the above isn't true in your team then you have a problem,
                                    but it doesn't lie in who is taking on the task. One thing I can see
                                    as a problem is that you have individual developers estimating tasks
                                    rather than the team as a whole. While this is tempting to speed up
                                    the estimating process, it means that the person who estimated the
                                    task is likely the only person for whom the estimate is valid. If
                                    they happen to be sick for a few days, or busy with something else,
                                    you're in trouble.

                                    At least, that's the way I see it. It's not easy to get to that
                                    stage, but I do see it as a very worthwhile goal.

                                    Regards,

                                    Adrian Sutton
                                    http://www.symphonious.net
                                  • Phlip
                                    ... I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working together, and you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I grab it and a
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Adrian Sutton wrote:

                                      > This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                                      > will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                                      > valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                                      > been increased.

                                      I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working together, and
                                      you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I grab it
                                      and a pair and spend 3 days doing it very badly.

                                      --
                                      Phlip
                                      http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
                                    • Russel Hill
                                      ... But, ... did you learn something in the process? Badly written code that has supporting tests can usually be dealt with. Possibly when the senior team
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On 12/3/06, Phlip <phlip2005@...> wrote:
                                        > > This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                                        > > will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                                        > > valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                                        > > been increased.
                                        >
                                        > I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working together, and
                                        > you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I grab it
                                        > and a pair and spend 3 days doing it very badly.

                                        But, ... did you learn something in the process?

                                        Badly written code that has supporting tests can usually be dealt
                                        with. Possibly when the senior team member returns the less
                                        experienced team member(s) will get to pair on the cleanup. I have
                                        occasionally allowed inexperienced pairs to go it alone for a few days
                                        just to experience this. I think this helps them refine their skills
                                        and develop a nose for smelly code.
                                      • Adrian Sutton
                                        ... Ah but you wouldn t, because you d come and ask for help once you realize you are struggling. Alternatively, you d mention you were working on it at the
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On 04/12/2006, at 8:13 AM, Phlip wrote:

                                          > Adrian Sutton wrote:
                                          >
                                          >> This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                                          >> will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                                          >> valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                                          >> been increased.
                                          >
                                          > I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working
                                          > together, and
                                          > you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I
                                          > grab it
                                          > and a pair and spend 3 days doing it very badly.

                                          Ah but you wouldn't, because you'd come and ask for help once you
                                          realize you are struggling. Alternatively, you'd mention you were
                                          working on it at the next morning's stand up and I'd check in to see
                                          how you're going. This is actually quite similar to my current
                                          situation - I have more experience with the code base than anyone and
                                          so I spend a lot of my time helping bring others up to speed when
                                          they are venturing into areas they don't know much about yet.

                                          Yes the work would get done faster if I did it myself, but that's
                                          only a short term view. Even if I take up all my time helping the
                                          five other team members to be more productive and learn more about
                                          the code, the team as a whole will go faster than if I took on
                                          everything myself and left them to struggle without assistance.

                                          The key to making it works comes in the discussion that started off
                                          this tangent:

                                          >>> That does not imply that the developer therefore owns feature
                                          >
                                          >> Developers own one user story during one iteration...
                                          >
                                          > Not necessarily. That was, I believe, my original point. While I do
                                          > think that is /a/ good way, I don't think it is the only acceptable
                                          > XP way.

                                          If you have developers that own a story, feature, task or class, they
                                          can get themselves lost and struggle and the team won't be there to
                                          help out. If the *team* owns all the stories, tasks, features and
                                          classes then we all work together to make sure that everything gets
                                          down. It can be useful for one person to take ownership of tracking
                                          the progress of a story to make sure it doesn't fall between the
                                          cracks, but the team as a whole is still responsible for doing the
                                          work. Sharing the work load and responsibility also means sharing the
                                          knowledge, so when someone in the team is struggling they can ask for
                                          help or other team members will just notice they are struggling and
                                          go and help.

                                          My experience is that it works very well, but you do need a well
                                          gelled team.

                                          Regards,

                                          Adrian Sutton
                                          http://www.symphonious.net
                                        • Ilja Preuss
                                          ... I think you misunderstood what working together means. Take care, Ilja
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Phlip schrieb:
                                            > Adrian Sutton wrote:
                                            >
                                            >> This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                                            >> will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                                            >> valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                                            >> been increased.
                                            >
                                            > I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working together, and
                                            > you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I grab it
                                            > and a pair and spend 3 days doing it very badly.

                                            I think you misunderstood what "working together" means.

                                            Take care, Ilja
                                          • Ron Jeffries
                                            Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 5:13:54 PM, you ... Even if you accepted the estimate blindly, wouldn t you be wise enough, at the end of the
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Dec 3, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hello, Phlip. On Sunday, December 3, 2006, at 5:13:54 PM, you
                                              wrote:

                                              > Adrian Sutton wrote:

                                              >> This is a very good thing. By the time you have done your task you
                                              >> will both know more about the database and be more productive,
                                              >> valuable members of the team in future. The team bus number has now
                                              >> been increased.

                                              > I hope you remember this mail when, someday, we are working together, and
                                              > you pencil a 1-day estimate on a card, and then when you are out I grab it
                                              > and a pair and spend 3 days doing it very badly.

                                              Even if you accepted the estimate blindly, wouldn't you be wise
                                              enough, at the end of the first day (if not the first morning) to
                                              mention at the standup that you were in trouble?

                                              Ron Jeffries
                                              www.XProgramming.com
                                              Testing quality into a program is like spinning straw into gold.
                                              -- George Cameron.
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.